Israeli teenagers are a nuisance in Poland

11 05 2007

Source: Przekrój weekly of May the 10th 2007
Link to original article in Polish
Author: Anna Szulc
English translation: MoPoPressReview

The list of losses Israeli teenagers’ visits leave behind is long and costly. It begins with burned carpets in Polish hotels, and ends with Jewish teenagers’ trauma. But more and more often with local residents’ trauma too.

Roberto Lucchesini, originally from Tuscany, for several years now a resident of Krakow, hasn’t been sleeping well recently. Before he will be able to move his arms normally again, he will have to go through long rehab. All this because of how he was treated, in broad daylight in front of passers-by and several teenagers who were hermetically closed in their coach-buses. Israeli bodyguards, equipped with firearms, binded his arms behind his back over his head with handcuffs. In Krakow, in the middle of the street. A moment before, the Italian was trying to make coach drivers parking in front of his house turn their engines off. - ‘Israelis handcuffed me, threw me on the ground, my face landed in dog excrement, and then they were kicking me’. After that the perpetrators were gone. Italian had to be freed by the Polish police.

Lucchesini moved to Kazimierz, a district of Kraków, that used to be a Jewish commune of which the only things left now are synagogues and memories, often painful. He found an apartment with a view on the synagogue. – ‘Back then I had thought this was the most beautiful place on Earth’ – he says – ‘after some time I understood that the place is indeed beautiful, but not for its today’s residents’.

Kicking instead of answers

Another resident of Kazimierz, Beata W., office worker, is of similar opinion. Israeli security searched her handbag on one of the streets, without telling her why.
‘When I asked what was this all about, they told me to shut up. I listened, I stopped talking, I was afraid they’d tell me to get undressed next’ – she says annoyed.
A young polish Jew, who as usual in Sabbath, went to pray in his synagogue couple months ago, also didn’t get his answer. He only asked, why can’t he enter the temple. Instead of an answer, he got kicked.
‘I saw this with my own eyes’ - says Mike Urbaniak, the editor of Forum Of Polish Jews and correspondent of European Jewish Press in Poland. – ‘I saw how my friend is being brutally attacked by security agents from Israel, without any reason.’

All this apparently in sake of Israeli childrens’ safety.
- ‘For Poles it may be difficult to understand, but security agents accompany Israelis at all times, both in Israel and abroad’ – explains Michał Sobelman, a spokesman for Israeli embassy in Poland. – ‘This is a parents’ demand, otherwise they wouldn’t agree for any kind of trip. Poland is no exception.’

But it was in Poland, as Mike Urbaniak reports, where Jews from Israel brutally kicked a Polish Jew in front of a synagogue, and then threatened him with prison. In plain view of the Israeli teenagers.

- ‘We are very sorry when we hear about such incidents’ – Sobelman admits – ‘Detailed analysis is carried out in each case. We will do everything we can, to prevent such situations in the future. Maybe we will have to change training methods of our security agents, so that they would know Poland is not like Israel, that the scale of threats here is insignificant?

Professor Moshe Zimmermann, head of German History Institute at Hebrew University in Jerusalem thinks however, that the problem is not only in the security agents’ behaviour. He thinks Israelis basically think that Poles aren’t equal partners for them. And it’s not only that they think Poles can’t ensure their children’s safety.

- ‘They are not equal partners to any kind of discussion. It applies also to our common history, contemporary history and politics. In result Israeli youth see Poles as second category people, as potential enemies’ – he explains bluntly.

An instruction on conduct with the local inhabitants given away to Israeli teenagers coming to Poland couple years ago may confirm professor’s opinion. It contained such a paragraph: ‘Everywhere we will be surrounded by Poles. We will hate them because of their participation in Holocaust’.

- ‘Agendas of our teenagers’ trips to Poland are set in advance by the Israeli government, and are not flexible’ – says Ilona Dworak-Cousin, the chairwoman of the Polish-Israeli Friendship Association in Israel. - ‘Those trips basically come down to visiting, one by one, the places of extermination of Jews. From that perspective Poland is just a huge Jewish graveyard. And nothing more. Meeting living people, for those who organise these trips, is meaningless.’

A resident of Kraków’s Kazimierz district, who is of Jewish descent, says that there is nothing wrong with that: – ‘Israelis don’t come to Poland for holiday. Their aim is to see the sites of Shoah and listen to the terrifying history of their families, history that often is not told to them by their grandparents, because of its emotional weight. Often young people who are leaving, cry, phone their parents and say “why didn’t you tell me it was that horrible?”. To be frank, I am not surprised they have no interest in talking about Lajkonik.

However according to Ilona Dworak-Cousin the lack of contact with Poles, causes Israeli youth to confuse victims with the perpetrators. – ‘They start to think it were the Poles who created concentration camps for Jews, that it is the Polish who were and still are the biggest anti-Semites in the world’ – adds Dworak-Cousin, who is Jewish herself.

The above mentioned Kraków resident has a different opinion. – ‘I don’t believe anyone was telling them that the Poles had been doing this. That’s why there is no need for discussing anything with the Poles’.

Teenagers behaving badly

However, many Israelis say that although the instruction was eventually changed, the attitude to Poles has not changed at all.
‘Someone in Israel some day decided, that our children going to Poland have to be hermetically surrounded by security’ – says Lili Haber president of Cracovians Association in Israel. – ‘Someone decided that young Israelis cannot meet young Poles, and cannot walk the streets. Basically these visits aren’t anything else but a several-day-long voluntary prison.’

Voluntary, but also very expensive: 1400 USD per person. Not every Israeli parent can afford such a trip.

- ‘Moreover, as it turns out, the children are too young, to visit sites of mass murders’ - adds dr Ilona Dworak-Cousin. Traumatic experiences that accompany visits in death camps have its consequences. Kids become aggressive. And instead of getting to know the country of their ancestors, in which Jews and Poles lived in symbiosis for over 1000 years, Israeli teenagers cause one scandal after another.

It happens sometimes, that somewhere between Majdanek and Treblinka, young Israelis spend their time on striptease ordered via the hotel telephone. It happens sometimes, that the hotel service has to collect human excrement from hotel beds and washbasins. It happens sometimes, that hotels have to give money back to other tourists, who cannot sleep because Israeli kids decided to play football in hotel corridor. In the middle of the night.

6-year-old Krzys from Kazimierz played football too. On Sunday night on 15th April, after shooting two goals, he wanted to go home, as usual. He lives near a synagogue, in front of which hundreds of young Israelis have gathered on celebrations preceding March of Living. Just before Szeroka street he was stopped by some not-so-nice men. – ‘This is a semi-private area today. There is no entry’ – he was told. It didn’t help, when he told them, his mum will get upset if he won’t be home on time.

Security officers, which is interesting, were Polish this time and accompanied by the Polish police. They also denied access to the area to a Dutch couple, who had reserved a table at one of the restaurants on Szeroka street six months ago. – ‘Is this a free country?’ – One of the tourists tried to make sure.

On a normal day you can access Szeroka street from several sides. That evening from none. I tried to get through myself, without any success. Only eventually, the police helped me to pass the security line.

- ‘There are no official restrictions here’ – they were convincing me a moment later, although the “unofficial practice” was different.

- ‘We have only set certain restrictions in movement’ – Sylvia Bober-Jasnoch, a spokeswoman for Malopolska Region Police press service, explained to me later.

The police cannot say anything else. Polish law does not allow residents to be denied access to the streets they live at. Even during the so called mass events (however the celebrations on Szeroka did not have that status) residents have the right to go back to their homes and tourists have the right to dine in a restaurant. Also Israeli security agents have no right to stop or search passers-by.

I tried to find out more on the rights of Israeli security agents in Poland. First at the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, from where my question was sent to…. the Ministry of Education. I have also sent questions to the Home Office. Although I was promised, I received no answer. Only person eager to talk on that matter was Maciej Kozłowski, former ambassador in Israel, currently the Plenipotentiary of the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Polish-Israeli relations.

- ‘Regulations are imprecise’ – admits Kozłowski. ‘Basically bodyguards from a foreign country should not move around Poland armed. However for the government of Israel security matters are a priority. Any convincing that their citizens should use the services of Polish security turned unsuccessful’.

Airplane like battle field

The Polish-Italian couple, Robert Lucchesini, his wife Anna, and their two-year-old daughter, cannot understand Polish government’s attitude. Which contrary to the Israeli government, is not able to ensure the safety of its citizens. Safety is not the only thing among the pair’s priorities, but also peace and quietness. They are however being woken up every morning by the loud noises of engines, of the Polish coach-buses with groups of Israeli youth. Their Polish drivers brake driving regulations all the time. They’re allowed to park at the square near the synagogue (in front of Robert’s house) only for up to 10 minutes. They stay there much longer, even hours. With their engines turned on. Reason? Youth’s safety – they would be able to leave quicker in case of a threat. And because Israeli kids need to be served coffee. Because even though Kazimierz is full of cafes, Israeli teenagers don’t go there. They are being told: no contacts with environment, no talking to passers-by, no smiles nor gestures.

This has been going for years. Israeli groups contact with Poles only there where they have to. First in airplanes.

- ‘A plane after such group has landed, looks like a battle field’ – admits a worker of LOT Polish Airlines asking for his name not to be published. – ‘The worst thing is these kids’ attitude to Polish staff. Recently a stewardess was slapped by a teenager in her face. Because he had been waiting for his coca-cola too long’.

Leszek Chorzewski, LOT spokesman, admits that Israeli youth is a difficult customer. – ‘They demand not only more attention then other passengers, but also more security precautions’ – he adds. These precautions are long aircraft and airport controls conducted by Israeli services. These are also the high demands of the teenagers’ security agents.

Katarzyna Łazuga, student from Poznań, could see that first hand. She participated in a tourist guides’ training on one of Polish airports. ‘Young people from Israel entered the room we were in’, she recalls. – ‘Our group was then made to stop classes and rushed out of the room. Israeli security officers told us to go out, right now and without any talking. Because… we were “staring” at their clients. Yes, we were looking at them. They were catching attention, they were good looking.’

Young Israelis see Poles also there, where they board – in Polish hotels. If any of them still wants to have them. Most of those in Kraków don’t want to any more.

- ‘We have resigned from admitting Israeli youth once and for all’ – admits Agnieszka Tomczyk, assistant manageress in a chain of hotels called System. ‘We could not afford to refund the loses after their stays any more’.

These loses being: demolished rooms, broken chairs and tables, human excrements in washbasins or trash bins, or like in Astoria, other hotel in Kraków, burned carpet. Astoria also backs out from having Israeli groups. One of the reasons is that the teenagers’ security agents were ordering other guests, whom they didn’t like, to leave.

- ‘I understand that Israeli security agents are over-sensitive to any disturbing signals. They are coming from a country where bombs explode almost daily, and young people die in terrorist attacks’ – ensures Mike Urbaniak. – ‘But Poland is one of the safest countries in Europe. Here, excluding tiny number of incidents, Jews are not being attacked, and Jewish institutions don’t need security, which is very unusual on a world scale’.

Huge business

Chasidim, travelling in great numbers from Israel, also (surprisingly) don’t need security agents. Including for example many Orthodox Jews, who came to visit our country recently, as they wanted to pray at Tzadik of Lelów’s grave. They came to the market square in Kazimierz without any security assistance and without any fear.

- ‘They chatted eagerly with tourists interested in their outfits, with passers-by who don’t see Jews with side curls every day’ – adds Urbaniak.

In Kazimierz chasidim are nothing unusual. Like groups of Israeli teenagers. This year 30,000 Israeli teenagers are coming to Poland, and they will have 800 security agents to protect them.

Roberto Lucchesini reported to the Polish police that he got beaten by Israeli security. Krakow Prosecution Office is investigating the case, and so is its counterpart in Israel.

- ‘Results of this investigation are of medium importance’ – thinks Ilona Dworak-Cousin. – ‘What matters is if the youth that visits Poland, will still treat it as hostile and completely alien country’.

Polish-Israeli Friendship Association in Israel and Cracovians Association in Israel both try to convince the government of their country, not to send any more teenagers to see only the death camps in Poland. Chances are slim.

- ‘These trips are mostly a huge business for people who organise them’ – says Lili Haber – ‘including Israeli bodyguards’.

C O M M E N T S

Szewach Weiss, former speaker of Knesseth, former Israel’s ambassador in Poland:
I have a dream: I would like Israeli youth to come to Poland not only to see death camps, but also to see the life of Polish cities and towns. That they would even stay under one roof with Polish young people, so that after some time Poles would visit them back in Israel, that Poles would be invited and welcomed there. Is that one of those dreams that will never come true? I don’t think so, I believe that it will come true in 5 years at worst. In the meanwhile the most important thing is to change the current form of Israeli teenagers’ trips. A perfect solution would be direct contact between Israeli and Polish schools. That would have given a real chance to talk, exchange ideas, or even have an argument. I would however like the Poles to understand our difficult position, how deep is in us that idea that our children could lose their lives, even in a country as peaceful as yours. Of course that does not give anyone right to brutal behaviour towards Poles. Aggression is aggression, regardless of circumstances.

Yuli Amir, Israel’s Education Minister:
I think that Israeli youth doesn’t think good or bad about Poland or Poles. These trips are more about them, their Jewish identity. This is such Jewish feeling, that the whole world was against us, and Poland was on the wrong side too. You have to remember, that for many years Israeli youth has been rejecting Holocaust. For them it was a specimen, of how not to act. “Why did we go like sheep for death?”Holocaust was that weakness, they didn’t want to identify with. By coming to Auschwitz they have started to treat the victims of Shoah differently. This is a moral rehabilitation of Jewish past. of course we are aware of imperfections of the visits programme, we are considering changes. We discuss a lot, we think what influence these trips have on youth, on education. But all changes need time.

Mike Urbaniak, editor of Forum Of Polish Jews and correspondent of European Jewish Press in Poland:
I have met many Israelis in my life. Most of them are great, cheerful and exceptionally open people. They don’t have superiority complex. Everyone, who has at least once been in Israel has to admit that. In Poland however their image is getting worse and worse. And this will continue, if those trips will still look like a visit in countryside museum. This is a problem that needs to be solved in Israel as soon as possible.

* * *

See also » Young Israelis in Poland – continued


If you enjoyed this post why not visit Polandian, a collaborative blog on Poland.

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351 responses

21 05 2007
John

What do they Poles expect that the current Jews act like their grandparents did in Poland when the Poles could round them up and send them to be gassed? The Jedwabne Jews are gone. The Jews will never again allow the Poles to kill Jews. It seems that some Poles of today are longing for the days of an obedient, freightened Jew of yesterday when their greatgrandparents and grandparents could easily kill the Jews with total impunity. There was a good reason the Hitlerites picked Poland to exterminate the European Jewry. Poland has always been hateful of Jews.

2 03 2010
Snowday

The war is over we need to act like it. Let’s have less antipathy for each other’s cultures and be friends.

16 04 2010
Thomas Jones

John, nowhere in this article is the desire expressed that Jews be obedient or frightful. You MADE THAT UP. You are the worst kind of scum, and deserve to be enslaved for the benefit of people with brains. Then you should be slowly flayed alive with salt being cast upon your newly-exposed flesh, in front of your family, who then will feast on your flesh before being themselves enslaved for the benefit of REAL humans.
This is the only thing your diseased, evil mind will comprehend.

23 06 2010
Ricardo

Hate against the kosher scum grows each day and one day they will end up there they should. Just wait and see. We dont need jews here and we dont need more of their greedy, false and duplicitous nature so shut up moron. You dont have a clue about things youre talking about.

16 10 2011
Wrong

John, 350 years ago, Poland declared [as the first nation in Europe] freedom of religion which precipitated one of the greater shifts in the religious paradigm and demography in Europe. What you, in your hateful statement are propagating is really vicious. Yes, there were atrocities and animosities, just like you see in Israel today between the Jews and Arabs, that’s a given. Whenever you have secular differences, things will come to head from time to time. I am by no means trying to play down the atrocities. What you are however forgetting about, and what the majority of people who buy into this nonsense don’t think about, is the fact that in Poland – a Jew, was a Polish national and most likely came from a family with at least 4 or 5 generations worth of Polish roots. Another thing, Poland was the only country where by helping Jews, you and your family faced execution, yet in the Holocaust memorial in Israel, it’s the Poles who had saved more Jews during the second war, than any other nation. There are always two sides to each story, the problem is, not changing the history to fit your bias opinion but to report on the history as it was.

19 07 2012
Boer Kryger

Yes, they were quite hateful and still are hateful toward your people, because of your breathtaking arrogance ( I believe you like to call it chutzpah?) and they’re sick and tired of you. Through the course of history, your people has managed to get themselves kicked out of every country in Europe, at least one time if not multiple times.

20 12 2012
RAmok

That’s why 400 years ago, Poland as the first country in the world declared freedom of religion and this is why, Poland was the hub of Jewish culture for centuries. John, before you go around spewing your hateful messages, you should check your facts. Prior to WW II Poland’s prevailing religion was Judaism. So when you say that Poles were prosecuting and rounding up Jews, what you’re really saying is that they were killing other Poles. I am not denying that this was not the case and that tragedies such as Jedwabne did take place, but before you make such nonsensical statements as the one above, what you need to answer is this – how many Jews did Poles save by risking their lives? Which nation saved more Jewish lives than any other nation and last but not least – why, out of all the European nations, was Poland the only one, where for saving or protecting a Jewish life, your entire family was executed. The Polish underground put hits on people who’d sell Jewish families out to the Nazis and they sent hit men to fulfill those. You are a hateful person John and one who’s trying to rewrite the history.

21 05 2007
Ellen Moshenberg

In September 2001 when my son was in highschool he had a choice of a group trip to Poland or Germany. The trip to Germany was cheaper because it required less security. Thus, I was afraid to allow him to go to Poland. The teenagers of Arad, Israel were hosted by the teenagers of Dinslaken, Germany. Both sides were properly prepared for the visit. Together they attended classes, learned about the past, visited a concentration camp together and socialized together.Many close friendship were formed from this trip. In 2004 I relunctantly attended an animal welfare conference in Warsaw. I did not wish to visit “the Jewish graveyard” but my boss a famous writer (who recently wrote an international bestseller about his Polish ancestors) with extensive Polish contacts said to me that Israelis drive around in Volkswagons, take trips to Germany while at the same time are more prejudiced against Poland. He went on to explain that more Poles risked their lives and families to save Jews than any other nation and that I needed to go. I did go, even though I was afraid at first, once there I felt perfectly safe. My boss’s Polish friends helped me enormously in search of my family’s history. The Polish-Israeli Friendship Society hosted a meeting for the Cat Welfare Society of Israel. It was all an amazing experince. I have been back to Poland since and am planning a visit with my children this summer.

The Israeli Ministry of Education needs to immediately change its attitude regarding the school trips. The Arad-Dinslaken program should be the only model. If Israeli kids can socialize with Germans why should’t they socialize with Poles. This needs to be properly prepared by sensitive open minded Holocaust educators. The teachers need to be retrained for this and those who are emotionally unable to do so should be replaced with opened mind teachers whose goal is to promote dialog and understanding. This for the long term welfare and benefit of everyone involved: Poles, Jews, Germans and others.

I give my permission to the publisher of this site to give my email to anyone who might want to correspond with me. I would like to thank the Polish-Israeli Friendship Society and the wonderful friends of the famous writer who I am sure will recognize who he and they are from what I wrote.

21 05 2007
Ellen Moshenberg

One point I forgot to add regarding the behavior of the Israeli students. Although such vandalism is truly reprehensible it is not behavior reserved just for Poland. The Israeli youth tend to be undisciplined and unruly due to a very lax discipline in the the schools, lax parenting and lack of adult supervision in general. Ask Israeli hotels that host such groups of teenagers for their yearly outings you will find many of the same complaints. It is no excuse and the Ministry of Education and Foreign Ministries are to blame for not insuring that students are properly supervised at least when abroad as they are our representatives to the world.

23 05 2007
27 05 2007
John

#2 Get over it. The Jewish teens behave like the teens should behave. When they see the death camps they feel the pain of their, humiliated, abused and finally slaughtered brethren. They react to it in a normal fashion. What do you want to create the Jewish robots? Granted, it upsets some Poles but regardless what the Jews do or don’t do would upset them anyway. To Poles the zhids will always be arrogant, tricky, exclusive, deceitful or pompous. The Poles want to have a dialogue not because they feel for the Jews or Jewish suffering but because it would make them feel better. They want to send the message that they were not that evil but suffered too. Yeah, right! Why don’t they tell that to the Jews of Kielce? The fact of the matter is the Poles committed the brutal pogroms against the Jews right after WW2 with no Germans present at the site. Nobody instructed or forced him or her to commit the hateful, anti-Jewish, criminal acts.

Well, let them rejoice. The Polish landscape was ethnically cleansed out of the Jews and those who escaped the death in Poland built America and Israel. They brought the honor, knowledge; modernity to their new homelands while Poland remained wallowing in misery and backwardness for another 2 generations. They murdered or chased out the greatest talent Poland would ever encounter. Had Poland been less hateful of its Jewish citizens it could become at least as advanced as the US or Israel.

These days the Catholic Church that greatly influenced the Jewish tragedy in Poland is showing its kinder side toward the Jews not because it stopped hating the Jews but because it feels the heat being challenged by 2 much greater forces – secularism and Islam. Therefore, all of a sudden, we are not the “Jesus killers” any longer but have become the “elder brothers”. This is the Jewish reality. The Jews have to suffer while they evolve, learn the new values, acquire civility or knowledge.

16 10 2011
Wrong

Something very wrong with you. It’s people like you, who put strain on relationships between people on this planet.

20 12 2012
RAmok

Is this why, after WWII Jews held high offices in Polish courts and were some of the highest ranking party officials? What you need is a lesson in real history. There’s absolutely something very wrong with you.

30 05 2007
ken

john…i feel sorry for you….good luck to ya!

30 05 2007
goose

John, you are only making a strained situation worse.

I have no idea who you are.

My guess is that you are in actuality an anti-Semite of God-knows-what-nationality who just wants to stir up hatred.

There is no excusing what *some* Poles did to Jews before, during, and after WWII. There is no excusing what *some* Israeli teens and security agents are doing in Poland today.

John, what is your proposed solution to ending whatever enmity exists between Poles and Jews? It sounds like you would simply like to bomb Poland.

31 05 2007
Anonymous

Ken, I feel sorry for you too.

Goose. you are funny. Why do you need to know who I am? What is sickening about your kind is that you have come up with a moral equivalency between the Polish atrocities against the Jews and a normal teenage reaction to the crimes committed against the Jews on the Polish soil.

No, I don’t wish Poland any harm. It is just there and I am neutral to that land. If it is lifted up and send to the Moon it is not my problem and if it becomes a prosperous entity it is fine too. Either way I don’t wish it anything. I look at Poland as I look at Madagascar which happens to be somewhere there. Had I had to pick between Poland and Madagascar I would have picked Madagascar. It has beautiful beaches and the climate is much nicer than in Poland. My interest in the debate was sparked by the accusation of the Israeli teenages.

Jews are news! Whatever the Jews do or don’t do is newsworthy to this world. How many people in Europe know the names of the Indian or Chinese prime ministers? Yet, most know the leaders of Israel.

The 3rd press contingent in the world is stationed in Israel. It is not in Beijing , London or Delhi but in a tiny land of Israel. It does not get any sicker than that. When the Prime Minister of Israel farts the world picks it up as a story and the Jews get judged. Yet, when the Arabs fire the missiles from Gaza into Israel the reporters don’t get excited as it is not newsworthy for them. They only report it when the Jews get involved and retaliate. Why? Because the new organizations are private entities interested in making a profit. The Jews arouse emotions. The emotions increase the ratings and ulminatedly higher advertising costs. The reporters know what their readership/viewership is like – it is anti-Semitic.

That is why we are discussing this non-issue. Poland is a Jewish graveyard. The pain is still acute as only 65 years have passed. We are not like the European Christians who were exterminatng the living Jews in the morning and were asking for forgiveness from the only Jew they loved in the evening. The fact of the matter is the only 2 pogroms perpetrated in Europe against the Jews after the WW2 happened in Poland.

31 05 2007
Tom

I am a Catholic Pole, and my late grandfather’s two brothers were hanged by the German Nazis for resisting the occupation. I resent John’s ignorant comments. Poland lost 6 million citizens during WWII, 3 million of which were of Catholic faith, while the other 3 million were Jewish. Both the Catholic Poles and the Polish Jews resisted the Germans as best we could. The Jews fought in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in 1943, while the Catholic Poles fought in the Warsaw Uprising in 1944. Cases of collaboration by the Catholic Poles were few and far between. It must be remembered that Poland was the first country to stand up to Hitler and say no to his territiorial demands in 1939.

31 05 2007
blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz

John, you are over-sensitive. This situation has been going for sometime, and no one ever decided to write anything about it until just now.

There is no point in accusing everyone of anti-Semitism. You’re acting like ‘the only gay in the village’ character. You actively seek anti-Semitism, you see it everywhere. Even in the freezer. Ease down.

This article is not about the political situation of Israel. And there is no need to look for conspiracy theories here, the sort of “the whole world vs Israel”. There are many good exchange programmes in Europe, and I see no reason why Israel-Poland couldn’t indulge in one of them:)

31 05 2007
Young Israelis in Poland - article continues « MORE POLAND: PRESS REVIEW

[...] – article continues 31 05 2007 Please note: this article is contunation of matters raised H E R E (click).  It is advised to read the former [...]

1 06 2007
nemeczek

John, your diatribe is bound to be offensive to any normal human being. Have you considered therapy or, at least, anger management? Drop the bunker mentality when you venture outside your hood (even into the cyberspace) and, most importantly, stay on topic. You wrote such a protracted essay (must have taken you at least an hour) but there is no focal point to it. It is an unhealthy mix of anti-Polish sentiment and intellectual dishonesty (or stupidity, take your pick) – you even managed to squeeze in farting politicians. It is true that teens acting out are hardly newsworthy, but from what I understand these kids come to Poland in some sort of official capacity (that’s how they justify bringing over the armed bodyguards – BTW, why on Earth they think they need them in Poland is beyond me). So the trip is hardly an alternative to a spring break in Cancun, right? You write: “To Poles the zhids will always be arrogant, tricky, exclusive, deceitful or pompous” – do you honestly think the piece your spewed up will help to change the views allegedly held by the Poles, or will they be tempted to replace “or” with “and” just to make your statement a bit more accurate? Somehow I know the answer…

1 06 2007
John

Perhaps the Poles should read this. Apparently, there is a glimmer of hope in that continent that exported death, hatred and destruction.

http://usawakeup.org/europeanlife.htm

1 06 2007
Anonymous

nemeczek, the very fact that the Jews live on is offensive to your infected kind.

blazej, when you lose 99.9999% of your people in a graveyard like Poland please come back to tell us how it feels but please do not be too sensitive.

How nice of you, Tom, to elevate the Jews to your Polish level of bravery. Thank you very much. So, Tom, what happened in Kielce and Jedwabne? Was any German or a Russian instructing the nice Polish Catholics how to commit murder?

16 10 2011
Wrong

So, why don’t Anonymous and John tell us about what happened with the communists…you know, the greatest murderers, greater even than Hitler. Since you like to throw out of context and mainly wrong historical facts around, why don’t we discuss communism, it’s spread and effect on the world as well as it’s casualties.

1 06 2007
polishpress

hey Anonymous (or John as this is the same person), at least hold your personal attacks and don’t insult other readers please! “your infected kind”? what kind of language is this?

1 06 2007
goose

John/anon or whomever:

You immediately assumed I was drawing an equivalency. Not so. However, I was indeed condemning atrocities and what you weirdly think are “normal” teenage Jewish reactions. Two different things. You drew the equivalency. Nonetheless, so *you* still defacate on beds in hotels? Do you think that is “normal”?

You lost 99.9999>% of “your people” in Poland? Are you speaking of your family? Obviously, you cannot be talking of all Jews or even Polish Jews although the percentage was trajically high.

And I am glad that you do not care if Poland exists or not. Too bad that so many people feel the same way about Israel.

1 06 2007
blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz

Well I am not indifferent on the fate of Israel. It has to be acknowledged that they have made it to build from scratch a very strong and prosperous democratic state. I hope things will settle down in the Middle East, and Israelis and Palestinians will come out with some political solution that will satisfy both sides to the greatest extent and bring life free of fear of terrorists attacks to Israelis and peace to Palestinians. I would also wish Palestinians some better leadership, as the economical and mental difference between these two territories couldn’t be more apparent.
This is probably wishful thinking as there are too many people spreading hate, using the difficult issues, seeking conspiracy, and work very hard to make the things worse. Some of them possibly making personal profits from it.
I also think some fundamental change is also needed in popular understanding of Islam among Muslims themselves. I recently read a very interesting book by Irshad Manji, Canadian born muslim woman. She analysed the state of Arab world from a historical perspective and proposed some solutions. Unfortunately right now, completely opposite way of thinking are becoming increasing popular in the Arab world. They, like John, have the feeling that the whole world is against them.

1 06 2007
goose

BTW, John/anon…

The article from that link you posted was racist, intolerant drivel.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

1 06 2007
nemeczek

John a.k.a. Anonymous, have you actually read the article or just its title? Your heatred is really out of place, not because it’s offesive to others but because it allows your inner uggliness to surface.
Read this:

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/common_knowledge/v008/8.3michnik.html

I know, it is well beyond the level of discourse you are used to, but I am convinced you will manage to grasp it, at least in part.

1 06 2007
blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz

nemeczek, this article looks interesting – it seems only an excerpt is available without logging to the site.. can you give us login and password?

or, alternatively, do you know its Polish title? Since it’s Adam Michnik’s it’s probably available in Polish in Gazeta Wyborcza internet-archive…

1 06 2007
nemeczek

Blazej, unfortunately I do not have access to the whole thing (I found it via Google). I was actually looking for a lecture by Michnik on reasons why Polish Jews (and their descendants) not living in Poland feel so much resentment towards modern-day Poland and its inhabitants. Michnik was trying to explain why the Poles (but, oddly enough, not Germans or Russians) stir up so many negative emotions in Jewish folks around the globe. Michnik’s thesis is that everything boils down to unrequited love (sic!) – the country that had given them shelter, the country their considered their home, the country they loved, rejected them wholesale and never looked back. Anyway, if I find the link to the lecture, I’ll post it here.

1 06 2007
Anonymous

ohh…goose…do I have to teach your kind the facts? There were 3M Jews in Poland. 3K survived. Can you please do the math? As for defacating the sheets, it is nothing more than the stress-induced diarrhea. It is not surprising that the kids had it especially after what they saw. After all they were in Auschwtiz, Poland. Have you also taken into the account the Polish cuisine?

goose, what facts in the article do you disagree with and please lets not get personal? We are not communicating to love or like each other. The only requirement we have is to be civil.

blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz, there never be peace between the Jews and Arabs. This conflict is of epical proportions. The Arabs own 99.9% of the Middle Eastern landmass much of which is floating on oil. They have 22 brutal, dictatorial regimes based on corruption, internal terror in the form of secret police agencies, discrimination of every kind imaginable and in some parts even slavery. However, 70% of the UNGA resolutions are directed against Israel, an island of liberalism, gay-pride parades, transparency and democratic institutions. Israel is 9-miles wide in its narrowest point. 20% of Israel is Arab. 10 Arabs serve in the Israeli parliament while there are practically no Jews left in most Arab states let alone representing a constituency in any Arab forum. So, the Jews in Israel barely own 80% of the 0.1% of the Middle Eastern landmass, which by the way is oil-free. The prime real estate in Israel is owned by the Greek Orthodox Church which is mostly Arab. The land on which the Israeli parliament building and the PM residence sit are leased from the Greek Orthodox Church. The Palestinian Arab or Greater Arab – Israeli Jewish conflict is not about the land. It is about the wounded Arab pride. Take a look at Israel and the Arab states. Israel is modern, successful, industrious while the Arab states are dictatorial, backward or terrorist. There is a lot of resentment in the Arab world toward the Arab regimes that could not deliver the extermination of Israel and the 1M jews who were expelled from most Arab countries. Does it sound familiar to you? The Jews were resented in Poland too. The Jewish graveyard in Auschwitz is the direct result of the Polish, German, European hatred of Jews. Most Jews in Eastern Europe or the pale of settlement were precluded from the land ownership and they were still hated. The only positive outcome of the European anti-Semtiism is that it helped advance America and Israel. You kicked out the talent that moves the Wall Street and produces the Hollywood movies you love to watch so much. Barbara Streisand, Harrison Ford, Menachem Begin, Roman Polanski could have advanced the Eastern Europe but instead have been advancing America, Israel or France.

nemeczek, please leave you emotional outbursts for you wife, husband or psychiatrist.

polishpress, thanks for revealing the anonymous identity. By the way, defining an anti-Semite as an infected kind is very, very mild.

Would anyone tell me how many Germans, Russians or Aborigines forced the innocent Poles to burn the Jews in Jedwabne?

1 06 2007
nemeczek

blazej, here it goes (in Polish only)
http://www.dialog.org/dialog_pl/michn01.html

John, another long essay, another wasted hour… Do you actually consider this nonsense therapeutic? It is a compilation of slogans from propaganda booklets w/o a scintilla of original or independent thought. You need to read the article first; otherwise you will keep on drifting further and further away from the topic. Rambling about Arabs… What next? Eskimos?

1 06 2007
polishpress

Anonymous John, I repeat, you have intentionally offended nemeczek saying that specifically “his kind” is “infected”. Your intentions were clear.
You were not talking about anti-Semites. You were specifically talking about nemeczek. Unless you imply he is one, which would be another offence.
In Poland, from which this blog is edited, insulting and using offensive language against somebody by the means of mass communication is forbidden by law. Therefore I urge you not to lose your temper in the heat of debate and to mind your language.

1 06 2007
Anonymous

The polish press, for your information, anti-Semitism is a viral condition and those who have that condition are infected. Why don’t you sue Itzhak Shamir, the former Israeli PM, who happens to be still alive. He was born in Poland, and is obviously well aware of his Polish compatriots. “Poles suckle anti-Semitism with their mothers’ milk.”

So, back to the facts how many Bengalis, Pushtuns or Germans have forced the Poles to burn the Jews in Jedwabne?

1 06 2007
JustAGuy

In answer to John’s question, I have no idea what forced a handful of Poles to burn the Jews in Jedwabne. I have no idea either what forced Baruch Goldstein to massacre civilians in the Cave of Patriarchs in 1994. I have no idea why the Israeli government gave shelter to Salomon Morel, a genocidal maniac. I have no idea why Julius and Ethel Rosenberg and Jonathan Pollard spied on the United States. I have no idea why Yigal Amir assassinated Yitzhak Rabin. I do know that making generalizations on basis of what some individuals do is wrong.

1 06 2007
polishpress

nemeczek, I have read the article you have provided link to. I find it very interesting, and I’m considering translating it for this blog. I am very much surprised with how much attention that article about Israeli youth received. It seems clear to me that there is a big need for a Polish-Jewish debate, and that there is still a lot to do for the reconciliation process.

1 06 2007
polishpress

Anonymous John, once again I remind you you were talking about nemeczek and “his kind” not about anti-Semites. As for anti-Semitism I can only agree that this is viral like any other kind of racism. Anti-Polonism, anti-Germanism, anti-Britishism, anti-Arabism etc.

1 06 2007
Anonymous

When 99.999% of Poles get exterminated on the Jewish soil please come back here to talk to me about anti-Polonism. Even if only 10% and not 70% of UNGA resolutions are directed against Poland I would be happy to discuss the anti-Polonism with you. If the Poles are rounded up by the Jews and set on fire the way the Jews were set on fire in your native Poland by none other than the Poles I would also be glad to discuss anti-Polonism with you.

However, until that time arrives, there is no use in that topic as it has no value whatsoever.

1 06 2007
goose

John, anon:

You ask not to “get personal” and yet you have referred to “your kind” and “your infected kind”.

As to numbers and percentages… Lucy Davidowicz, the Jewish scholar who is purported to have done in Norman Davies’s case for tenure, claims that there were 3,300,000 Jews in pre-war Poland with 300,000 survivors immediately thereafter That’s 90%.

So your history and math needs a corrective.

Do you realize that Poland was an occupied country?

Yes, it is true that many Jews left and some were killed after WWII. And I will not condone or dismiss that.

But consider, too, the other victims of Nazi concentration camps (not just the number of total victims of the Nazis):

Soviet POWs 2–3 million
Politicals 1–1.5 million
Serbs 600,000
Poles 200,000+
Roma 220,000–500,000
Freemasons 80,000–200,000
Disabled 75,000-250,000
Spanish POWs 7,000-16,000
Gay men 5,000-15,000
JWitnesses 2,500-5,000

Please do the cumulative math.

And again, the article you hyperlinked shows that you degrade the humanity of Poles, Jews, and God knows what other peoples.

And my guess is that only an rabid American racist would refer to such an American website.

Again, it still seems you want to foment hatred, not bring about it’s amoelioration and cessation. So piss off and defacate in your own bed for a change.

1 06 2007
nemeczek

Polishpress, I am glad you liked the link I provided. I also found Michnik’s opinions interesting – in my view, he is spot on in his analysis. Before you go on and translate this, though, I would ensure it has not been done already. At the bottom of the page, it says ‘wersja angielska’ but the sub-link leads nowhere.
As far as the Polish-Jewish dialog is concerned, I personally do not see it going anywhere. The discussions might be passionate (as you can see even on this website), but not constructive. As Michnik says, we simply remember the very same things differently. Having said that, I do not think there is any need to prevent John/anonymous or whatever alias he is currently using to freely express his opinions. Short of any direct threats, written words affect me as much as a wolf’s howling affects the Moon. Keep up the good work.

1 06 2007
Maciekqbn

I would like to focus on this:

“Poland is for many Israelis, especially the older generation, emotions, it is the Holocaust, but also the after-war memories, not always good. These people are the grandparents of the teenagers who come to Poland. They are in a way programmed by their families. When during social meetings I tell them that Poles and Jews have lived here for many centuries, that Poles were the victims of war just like Jews, young Israelis look at me surprised. And they add, that until now they have known another story.” (David Peleg, Ambassador of Israel in Poland).

It means exactly that most of Jews do not know the history. They just know some old-fashioned Zionist’s propaganda.

During WW2 there were 6 milions of Polish citizens killed. 3 mln of them were Poles and 3 mln. Jews. If (as Zionist propaganda say) this is only a result of Polish hate against Jews and no Germans were involved than it means that 3 mln of Poles commited a suicide in that time. Stupid, don’t you think?

Israeli people… please LEARN a real history and facts.

2 06 2007
Anonymous

hehe…you people are funny…you will never grasp the extend of the Holocaust tragedy. Never! You cannot!

Yes, the Jews used to live in Poland but the 99.9% of Polish Jews married the Jews. They maintained their own culture, religion and traditions. They did not really mix in with the local Polish population and that created the animosity toward them. The Catholic Poles did not appreciate the Jewish rejection of the only Jew they loved. Plus, as you know, all Jews are rich. They are some trees that grow gold and only the Jews know how to harvest them. That is why we are so wealthy. Everything is given to us on a silver or golden platter. The Jewish success has always been one of the reasons why the people hate Jews. There are practically NO Jews left in Poland. However, according to the polls the general Polish population thinks that the Jews have too much power in the Polish government. That is how it was in Spain, Britain, Tunis, France, etc. where the Jews were either murdered or expelled.

50 years ago the Arabs were poor and the Jews were poor but these days Israel is modern and successful and the Israeli standard of living is higher or equal to the one in Spain. These days the Jews are relatively rich. In fact, the Israeli per capita income is greater than the per capita income of all Israeli neighbors combined. In other words, the Arabs are still poor. So, the Arabs want a good part of Israel. In fact, they want more than just a part of it. They want Jerusalem and they also want to replace Israel with another Arab state where the Jewish doctors and educators can serve their needs and advance their interests while they will procreate, eat hummus, play backgammon and socialize. They are very intelligent. It is the Jews who are stupid.

Your ancestors have devoted the most beautiful buildings in the world to one Jew who forgives you your vile acts and makes you feel better even when you commit murder, rape or rob. Your excuses are not only foolish but sickening but you have a Jew who loves and cherishes you and he always ready to help you out in the process.

History is full of bloody wars. In fact, Europe is drenched with human blood. After all, it is continent where everybody hated everybody. However, by bringing in excuses of this or that suffering you don’t get uniqueness of Holocaust. Never before the mass deportations and the killing process was done via a corporate structure where there were engineers, managers, bookkeepers, drivers, etc. – everybody they needed to annihilate the people who were vehemently hated.

What bugs you the most that we have not forgotten our tragedy thereby reminding you who your ancestors were. Some of you think that they made the greatest discovery. All of a sudden they found humanity and that brings them to the Jewish level. After all, the Jews are not treating the Palestinian Arabs sufficiently well. So, it makes us the alike. Some of you even know a few good Jews that you are friendly with. Where did your humanists learn humanity? Who taught it to you?

It must have been the Zoroastrians!

2 06 2007
"On what Poles and Jews don't like to remember" « MORE POLAND: PRESS REVIEW

[...] from the blog’s editor: I decided to translate this text after having read comments posted to THIS (click) article. I would like to thank Nemeczek. All texts on this website, apart from this one, are [...]

2 06 2007
Maciekqbn

You (Anonymous (00:33:53)) are suffering from hate. Your own hate against Poles. I think it is better for you to start to cure this mental illness. Remember that usualy mentaly ill people can’t see their problem by themselves. They must be told about it and be convinced to start curation.

Best regards to all Poles, Jews and whole good people over the world.

2 06 2007
Anonymous

The Polish press, you poor thing got very excited. To be honest it is a dumb piece. I would gladly swap the Jewish suffering for the Polish one. Also, how many Poles were rounded up by Jews and burned alive? Have the Jews ever murdered the Poles the way the Poles murdered the Jews? You people must look in the mirror and face your history. You, the sad creatures, cannot address the Jedwabne and Kielce pogroms because your cannot justify it and blame somebody else. You want to create an impression that you were better than the truth suggests.

Why don’t you try to read the Israeli press? The Jews beat themselves up as nobody else. There are no secrets in Israel. Unlike you the Jews constantly evaluate and re-evaluate all historical facts and everything is out in the open. Also, unlike you, the Jews are not afraid to face reality regardless how harsh it is. You, on the other hand, want to come across a lot better than you actually are. It took over 50 years for the Jedwabne tragedy to come out in the open. Why? Because you hid it. Had it not been for one Polish Jew it would have never been exposed.

By the way, speaking of defacation, which obviously concerns you a great deal I ate at the most exclusive Warsaw restaurants and can state affirmatively that the Polish cuisine sucks big time. It is rudimentary, backward and can be very fattening. Therefore, it is easy to get a bad bout of diarrhea in Poland. Some day when you can afford it you will bring in the good chefs from China, Japan, India, Mexico, the USA, etc. Hopefully, they will teach you a few cooking tricks.

There are two countries where the food is exceptional 1) Thailand 2) Israel.

16 10 2011
Wrong

actually, the Jews did murder the Poles for many years after the war… sad but, somehow you like to omit certain facts about the history of this conflict. Even before the war, why don’t you read about Ukraine a bit, and what took place there .

2 06 2007
Hornet

Hey, Anonymous, can you explain why some prominent Jews collaborated with the Nazis during World War II? Can you explain why Lohamei Herut Israel representative Naftali Lubenchik met with the Nazi official Werner Otto von Hentig in 1940? Wasn’t Lubenchik there to propose cooperation between the Zionists and Nazi Germany? Can you explain why some of those who collaborated with the Nazis to combat the British in Palestine later became Prime Ministers of Israel? Such as Yitzhak Shamir, who was a member of the aforementioned Lohamei Herut Israel? You keem complaining how the Poles did not protect the Jews from the Nazis. How about complaining how some Jews aided and abetted the Nazis?

2 06 2007
goose

John, anon:

Are you really so ignorant that you don’t even know Michnik is a Jew?

Of course, Jews suffered because of some Poles. And Jews suffered disproportionately over the course of WWII. But you completely forget the Nazis ever existed.

It is absolutely amazing that you think Jews hold sole exclusive rights to historical suffering. And even more amazing that some people buy into such nonsense.

Norman Finkelstein, the son of Holocaust survivors, is the necessary corrective to such ridiculousness:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7985100635045440998&q=doha+debates+lobby

And guess what, even liberals in the US are getting fed up with Israeli intransigence and warmongering.

2 06 2007
blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz

Thanks nemeczek for the link, Michnik’s lecture is interesting indeed. And if what the Israel ambassador says is true, then it is a bit frightening. How could it be then, that the next Israeli generations get the historical facts so fragmented and cut-off from the reality of that time, filtered and then put together again, that they think only Jews were Hitler’s target?
I agree that the debate doesn’t go anywhere, and it’s a pity, since we have insitutions like Gazeta Wyborcza, and Adam Michnik.
As it usually is Commisions of historians can debate and come out with joint conclusions, but things like that never brake through to mainstream media and public opinion.
Michnik’s lecture should be on the obligatory curriculum both in Poland and Israel. And USA I suppose, when I see what that John character says.

This is our fault too, unfortunately: we have let the anti-Semitism in the free Poland exist, not fighting enough things like Radio Maryja. And I think I have heard more about celebrations at the the Polish 9/11 victims’ monument in Kielce, than about celebrations remembering the victims of Kielce Pogrom. Things like these only help false opinions, like those of John and his Polonophobia, spread.

2 06 2007
Anonymous

hehe…you people are funny. I was waiting for your kind to bring up some Jew or a few Jews who are hateful of all other Jews. The Jews have always had some Jews who go against the Jewish grain. Normally, they are picked up by the anti-Semites as the good Jews. Such Jews is the main justification or excuse to hate the majority of Jews. You have always loved them. That is why such Jews become famous among you. The press gladly picks them up. The recent boycott of Israel by the British educators was instigated by a few Israeli Jews. The International Solidarity Movement, an ugly, pro-Palestinian Arab organization known for it communication with a provocative anti-Israel element, was also founded by a Jew. Finkelstein or Chomsky are also such Jews. That is why you love them. Yossi Beilin, another trashy Jew. has no or very little following in israel. Yet, he is admired and accepted in most European capitals. That is how the anti-Semites excuse their hatred of Jews. They bring in their Jews.

Eventually, such Jews die with history. The Jews who live on in our minds and souls are the Jews that we, the majority of Jews, love and admire, the Jews that we remember and the Jews who helped the Jewish nationhood. So, go on quoting the Finkelstein types and the rest of them. It shows who you are. We have survived without the real estate because unlike you we know who we are. We have survived despite all odds because we have never lost our roots be that Poland, Iraq, Russia or Morocco.

Would you pick up Jesus or would he become your savior if he agreed with the majority of Jews?

2 06 2007
Hornet

“Trashy Jew.” You made up this one, don’t blame it on the anti-Semites, Anonymous.

2 06 2007
Anonymous

Yossi Beilin is definitely a trashy Jew. He is your type of a Jew. That is he is admired and liked by your kind.

Yossi Beilin, Finkelstein, Chomsky or anyone like them forget that in Auschwitz the “good” Jews like them were not spared. The only reason Finkelstein can be critical of other Jews is because his parents survived. They were simply lucky. Therefore, he spews their venom at other Jews. Also, because they were born in israel or the US rather than Russia, Poland or Syria they enjoy not only freedom but also full impunity.

So, can anyone of you address the question, would you pick up Jesus or would he become your savior if he agreed or went along with the majority of Jews?

2 06 2007
goose

Finkelstein and other Jews who have criticised Israel’s warmongering have full impunity? You are living in a dreamworld. They have been roundly criticized and their chance of tenure threatened or destroyed by other Jews led by the likes of Alan (defender of OJ Simpson) Dershowitz.

Also why should I or anybody care what a majority of Jews think as if only the opinion of Jews matters?

And I’ve never heard the argument advanced by any other Zionist that Jews can survive without “real estate.”

But as an American, and such an altruist, maybe you can convince your government to give up Alaska and let the Palestinians have their “real estate.”

2 06 2007
Hornet

So, Anonymous, getting to the point of the press article, would’t you agree that a lot of those “Israeli teenagers being a nuisance in Poland” are in fact “trashy Jews”?

2 06 2007
nemeczek

Blazej, one should only try to change things that can be changed. Besides, it does not really matter what others think of you, if you do not have any interaction with them. We Poles have own historical memory, our own heroism, and our own victims and, first and foremost, we should remember and honor them. Because if we don’t, nobody else will. If anything, they will (figuratively speaking) gladly piss on their graves.
It is true that Radio Maryja and some of our ‘politicians’ are mildly anti-Jewish, but let them be, because the last thing I would like to see in our country is restrictions on free speech. Talking rubbish is not, and should not be, illegal. I learned a long time ago that people who shout the loudest are usually not right. They mistakenly believe that decibels add more weight to their argument. Having said that, t is still educational/entertaining to listen to them.
BTW, I found this website via beatroot’s blog (you know, the Tinky-Winky affair) and, I must say, your entire crew are doing a very good job.

3 06 2007
Anonymous

Hornet. once again, the Israeli teenages react to stress and your glorious Polish cuisine. Either one can induce a digestive condition and, by the way, your kind has always viewed the living Jews as something of a nuisance at best and the Jesus killers at worst.

Goose, 60 years ago the Jews were abused. laughed at and murdered on your Polish soil. They had nothing but a very strong belief in the Torah and look where the Jews are today. There is a strip of land. One of the best armies in the world, nuclear capability, first class health-care system, first-class universities, the democratic institutions, a revived language, a good standard of living, agriculture, etc. 100 Israeli companies are listed on the New York exchanges: NASDAQ, NY and American. The Jews have come a long, long way despite terrorism, wars, the European hatred, economic boycotts, etc. When I was in Poland I ran into a group of American Jews with Polish roots. They were older but despite the time they spent in America experiencing the good life they still had the Polish imprint of suffering on their faces. They were quiet, reflecting and polite. The new Israeli Jewish generation is different. Today the Israeli girls are gorgeous and the guys are strong. They walk with pride with their heads up rather than down. Obviously, that what bothers your kind the most. Your would gladly see the same timid, short and insecure Polish Jew, the type of a helpless Jew your compatriots burned in barns or exterminated in camps.

“Also why should I or anybody care what a majority of Jews think as if only the opinion of Jews matters?”

Hehe…that was a very revealing statement of yours. Of course, you don’t care what the majority of Jews think. Your kind only loves and appreciates a small number of highly critical, anti-Jewish Jews. That is what matters to you.

So, would you dedicate your beautiful cathedrals to a Jew who was not critical of other Jews?

3 06 2007
blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz

Omg, John/anonymous you’re incredible. So a “trashy Jew” is Jew that has a different opinion than you?

If stupidity had wings, you’d fly in the skies like a dove.

Do you know anything about the life of Jews in pre-war Poland? Where people here lived there normal lives, Poles and Jews and neighbours, and everyone was happy. If Poles were such Jew-hates why on earth here was the largest Jewish commmunity in Europe? If anyone hates anyone here, it is you hating Poles and Poland. And Europe. And Arabs. Through this hate you filter information that reaches you, but nothing explains your lack of basic knowledge. You keep talking about how Jews are great now, why don’t you read some things how Jewish culture used to flourish in Poland before the war. But wouldn’t match your anti-Polonic prejudice, would it?

I saw very interesting comments on this matter on ynet.co.il forum(http://www.ynet.co.il/english/Ext/App/TalkBack/CdaViewOpenTalkBack/0,11382,L-3402765-5,00.html) and I’m pasting four of them here. This may give you John/Anonymous something to think about.

– “A perspective of a Jewish citizen of Poland
The article did not exactly slam the Israeli youth! The given comments showed the complexity of the problem. Such authorities as Shevah Weiss and Yael Tamir discussed the problem, and, they also see that the idea of trips of Jewish youth to Poland is a sick idea!

My family has been always very close to Israel, some of them migrated there. Those, however, who decided to remain in the diaspora, treat their communities as their environment. Being in Krakow 60 years after the Shoah I am asking myself am I Jewish or am I Polish? NO. NOT in terms of identity. In terms of how am I treated by Israelis.

I cannot go to MY synagogue freely without being suspiciously watched by the guards. I cannot enter the community buildings without passing by large crowds of youth who show their whole disrespect and arrogance towards the environment that I live in. I cannot go to the March of the Living without being watched and, sometimes even, insulted. Why? Because my parents did not chose to go to Israel and remained in the diaspora and decided to raise me as a Jew?

Youth is youth. All of them will always make crazy jokes and have “fun”. No matter if it’s Jews, Poles, Americans or whoever. This is not a question of the youth and their behavior. This is a question of education. You HAVE TO STOP neglecting our existance – us, simple, Ashkenazis who decided to stay and who decided to raise the generations Jewish. You HAVE TO stop viewing a 1000 of years of our heritage of Poland only through the Shoah. You HAVE TO LEARN how to respect us, our culture, our heritage, and – even – our Polish neighbors because their ancestors made my ancestors survive the war.

This is the community I live in. It is most close to my heart. I want to raise my children here, in Krakow, in the city of Rabbi Meisels and Natan Nata Spira! And it is YOU who have to APPRECIATE it, and you have to TEACH the youth and let them understand and get to know our life, how it was, how it is, and how, one day, it may be if we stop this nonsence of sending the youth to camps and viewing the whole history of the Jewish diaspora only through the Holocaust.

And I don’t want to hear anymore again that Polish newspapers did this or that. Because you will probably consider my post as “slamming” the Jewish youth.

We are Jews.
The most important for us is KNOWLEDGE and EDUCATION.

So?
Where did it go?
Josef , Krakow, Poland (05.23.07)

To Israelis
Shalom! I’m Polish-Jewish so I know a lot about Polish antisemitism. Well there’re is antisemistism (like everywhere) but it isn’t so strong like in other countries e.g France, Russia, Germany. Have you ever heard about attacking Jews in the Polish streets? I haven’t. When I’m walking i’m don’t afraid that someone would detonade the bomb or something like that. You’re completely ignorant using terms: “Polish Camps”, “Poles killed millions of Jews” “All Poles are antisemitic” “They weren’t helping Jews” Learn more about history! During war Poles risked their life for helping Jews so can you explain that they got 1/4 trees in Yad Vashem? Have you ever heard about Irena Sendlerowa? No? So shut up! In my opinion Israelis are more anti-polish than Poles anti-semtic, sad but true. How can you explain anti-polish comic in Haaretz with bad polish alcoholic men, ugly dirty polish women and good german soldier who had provided sweets? You are totally brainwashed!!!
Paul , Warsaw, Poland (05.24.07)

To Paul from Krakow
Paul – I am so happy to see your comments. I also hope that one day the Jewish community in Poland, especially Krakow, will be thriving

The war took millions of lives and destroyed something beautiful. But it is our duty to commemorate what has been murdered and to build something not to forget our ancestors. Because commemorating them is not enough. It’s just like putting a stone and forgetting the whole thing.

I don’t like the whole idea of the March of the Living.
Generally the Israeli youth makes a huge picnic in Auschwitz. The groups from America and western Europe or Canada, Australia were relatively calm but they are also “sucked” into this whole frenzy of singing (because we’re alive), eating (because we’re soooo alive) and lying on the ground in a hot spring sun… SUNBATHING!! (Probably, because we are so alive and we really want to show it).

I couldn’t belive my own eyes. I couldn’t move, I couldn’t eat. How can you eat at the place of murder, where you knew how much it cost for all these victims to get a piec of bread? How can you sunbathe and tell your boyfriend a funny story in the sun when you knew that families were torn apart and burnt!

I myself am not a youngster. But it is not the case of being intolerant towards the youth. I was there among quite a big group of Polish Jews, most of them were students. And, you know what? Most of them (although not all of them, I have to admit) were the most miserable people in this whole crowd. No laughing, no singing, no eating. They just sat there tormented because they knew the value of this place – that their grandparents or even great-grandparents were tormented there.

And, actually, this was the first moment that gave me a lot to think about. Beacuse, I am asking myself, is this the Israeli education? How can we be pure and how can we build anything if we even don’t know how to commemorate our ancestors?
Josef , Krakow, Poland (05.24.07)

Once again to Paul from Krakow and to all of you
For the information of all of you, Krakow is slowly establishing it’s Jewish roots. And it is not only propagating Jewish culture (we have the biggest festival of Jewish culture in Europe which invites the biggest stars of the Jewish music and art). It is also the community which is growing because there is a very strong tendency right now – for the young, to find their Jewish roots, and for the middle-aged – to go back to their roots and return to the faith of their parents.

I don’t know if you know but there are 12 Jewish communities in Poland right now. Not all of them are big and only 4 of them have rabbis, and some of them congregate mainly very old people. But in bigger cities the communities are growing, there are schools for children and regular synagogue services. There are kosher kitchens, there are two Jewish newspapers (one issued in Polish, and a second one bilingual – Polish/Yiddish). This month the Polish Radio opened a new program which is called Kol Yisrael and the whole audition is for the Jewish minority in Poland, created by the Jewish minority and spoken in Hebrew only.

I think Israelis should come here and, finally, face it. Get to know us and get to know our history. Because we’ve been here for over 1000 years and we can really teach you something not to mention the fact that we can really show you something you can be proud of.

And the younger people come – the better. We really do need a change. Because so far my family in Israel are the only people I met there who know something about Poland (because of their own roots) and who appreciate what I do (because they know me and they see in what ways and how I remained Jewish). I am almost 40 (well… not almost, but close). And I know one thing. I want my children to gain equal rights to being Jewish as Israeli youngsters have. I want them to go on a trip to see Israel. But I want them to be treated as partners and active and important individuals, not as something that is odd and should be kept in a cage!

Paul – Am Yisroel Chai! Indeed. And, also, niech zyje Polska!
I’m not moving out of here and I don’t think neither will my children.
We’ve got plenty of things to do here. And I just hope that you can join us in building it rather than disturbing.
Josef , Krakow, Poland (05.24.07)

3 06 2007
Hornet

Anonymous, with every post I am becoming convinced that you are an unusual example of what I would call a “Jewish Nazi.” Your unjustified hatred of the Poles seems to equal that of Himmler, Goebbels and other German Nazis who comdemned the entire Polish nation to extermination.

I wonder, have you ever loved? I don’t mean whether you loved ideas or concepts. I wonder whether you ever loved another human being? Reading your posts, it seems to me you are incapable of love.

It is not entirely your fault. It is always the parents’ duty to teach their children not to judge nations on the basis of individuals’ behavior. Prejudice is one of the worst human vices, your parents definitely failed to teach you the basics.

Nonetheless I honestly do believe that you can change, that you can eradicate the hatred that poisons you. It is the natural human condition to love and be loved by others. I wish with all my heart that one day you will understand it. And it will be your victory alone.

3 06 2007
Anonymous

blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz, you are wrong. I did not define Beilin “trashy” because he had a different opinion or ideas. He is an Israeli with no power or respect among the Jews in Israel but he is loved and admired by your kind. He is not even a Knesset member. He has a tiny following within the fringes of the Israeli society and yet, that creature, is being welcomed in the presidential palaces all over Europe. Why do you think?

Moreover, he has negotiated an accord with the adversaries outside the elected government. Had he done it in the USA he would have been locked up for life under the Logan Act: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act
However, he is not an American but Israeli and in a nutty, ultra-liberal Jewish state of Israel they are trying to be more democratic than the USA. Can one be more Catholic than the pope? It is obvious that Israel being surrounded by some of the most brutal regimes on this planet is trying to be more democratic than the USA. The USA is geographically huge and powerful while Israel is tiny and vulnerable. No American parliamentarian would dare to advocate the destruction of the USA but in the Zionist state of Israel the Arab parliamentarians are advocating the destruction of the Jewish state from the podium of the Israeli Knesset. Can you show me a country on this planet where a parliamentarian can do it with the total impunity and continue to serve?

So, if that Beilin had been sitting in some dark corner preaching his ideology and ideas it would have been a different matter. However, that is not the case. While he is ignored by his countrymen he has been elevated by your kind to a special status of great relevance and importance.

That is the essense. You have always loved and admired such Jews.

Would you dedicate the most beautiful buildings in Poland to a Jew who was not critical of other Jews?

As for the Jews coming along way from the Polish gas chambers to being the pilots, super models, the best farmers in the world, computer scientists, the Nobel Prize winners, etc. yes, I stand by my previous statement.

Hornet, why don’t you use your psychology on your wife, children, girlfriend, boyfriend rather than on me? Unlike you, we have to carry over 600 mitzvot. You don’t have any idea what they entail.

Somebody above suggested that “Radio Maryja and some of our ‘politicians’ are mildly anti-Jewish, but let them be, because the last thing I would like to see in our country is restrictions on free speech”.

How much more sickening can it get? How can your politicians be anti-Jewish 65 years after the Holocaust? After all, Poland is a country where there are hardly any Jews left and speaking of hate, why don’t you face the truth and reality? Your so-called “midly anti-Semitic politicians” represent the nature of your land. The reason Radio Maryja is anti-Jewish because it caters to its audience. Obviously, they know who their customers/listeners are.

3 06 2007
mitzvot 563

anti-Polonism, anti-Arabism is the nothing different than anti-Semitism.

as to the 613 commandments most of them oppose the reason of today’s citizen.

3 06 2007
Maciekqbn

First of all – there was no ‘Polish’ gas chambers. These were German ches chambers. Poles were (among Jews, Gipsys and a few others) gased in these chambers. But of course it does not fit to your version of ‘history’ (or rather ‘story’).

Another thing – the Radio Maryja problem is reali demonized. I agree that this radiostation spreads hate. But it spreads hate not only to Jews but to everyone and everything, also to other Catholics who think in a diffrent way then they should (according to Radio Maryja). and it is a problem in Poland because 95% of catholics here is thinking in a diffrent way (then they should according to RM). There is one good thing … less then 1% of Poles are listeners of Radio Maryja.

By the way – in common Polish language ‘Radio Maryja listener’ is a synonim of an uneducated, nationalist idiot who hates Jews just like you (anonymous) hate Poles.

3 06 2007
Maciekqbn

These were German gas chambers. (not ‘ches chambers’ – I just mistyped, sorry).

To uneducated jerks: During WW2, between 1939 and 1945 ther was no state of Poland. All this land was occupied by Germany and administrated by Nazis (Germans). Unfortumately (after reading Anonymous) I start to doubt if this information is included in history lessons in some schools.

3 06 2007
mitzvot 563

It is all obvious, isn’t it? It were the Poles who persecuted Germans, and German government had no other option but to occupy Poland to grant their safety.

German government tried to prevent the Poles from killing Jews but it was impossible to control those wild hordes, and Poles built concentration camps. Then to cover up killing 6 million Jews, they killed in those camps some Poles too.

After that they falsified all pre-war history, to make it look like Jews were equal citizens, which everyone knows is a lie. Jews were persecuted, and that is why they had only 35 seats in 1922 parliament elections. Jewish people, who were one tenth of the Polish society before the war, were so persecuted that they weren’t allowed to emigrate to USA, because it is obvious all of them wanted to, and were welcomed there more than in Poland. It is obvious American Jews cared about them, as did American society.

Why is it obvious? It is common knowledge. Everyone will tell you.

What a terrible nation are those Poles, they suck the hate to Jews with their mother’s milk.

3 06 2007
nemeczek

The freedom of speech must be absolute. If you grant this freedom only to people you agree with, you impose restrictions on other people’s basic human rights. Look, nobody prevents you from talking w/o thinking; so let others make fools of themselves, as well. If somebody in Poland does not like your folks (because of coming across individuals like you, or for any other reason), let them speak out. If a neo-nazi, white supremacist, devil worshipper, etc., feels like voicing his opinions (no matter how appalling), why prevent him? After all, you do not bottle up your hatred, so why should others? As you know, it is so liberating to open up – it works way better than any medication.
Your world is very simple (or rather simplistic), and all pieces fit perfectly into your version of us-vs.-them reality. You just know you are a victim, and the entire world is after you. Well, they say ignorance is bliss, so I am kinda envious of the state of permanent nirvana you must be in. It brings happiness, of sorts, doesn’t it?

3 06 2007
blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz

“Well, they say ignorance is bliss, so I am kinda envious of the state of permanent nirvana you must be in. ”

HAHAHAAHAH ROFTL

4 06 2007
goose

Y’know. I may have changed my mind. For a while there, I thought John/anon was an American Nazi trying to foment hatred. Now I I think that alternatively John/anon is of Muslim background. In any case, I doubt that any Son of David can be as dumb and vile as John/anon.

4 06 2007
blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz

goose you got me a bit worried now. the thing that he is hateful and vile means he might be muslim?

he might be american nazi, as the fact that he keeps repeating the same things shows he doesn’t have any real knowledge about european history nor judaism. but i can’t see why he can’t be Jewish.

You think it isnt possible for sons of David to be dumb and vile? There are people like that in every nation. I recently read Anna Bikont’s article on historical research on people denouncing Jews during the German occupation of Poland
Among those people, were also for example:
– Stefania Brandstädter. She was a Jew from a respected and educated Krakow family. She lived during the war on aryan papers in Krakow (not in the ghetto), and she was a passionate denouncer. She used to sit on park benches in Planty, where the caretakers hiding Jewish children and their parents were meeting and taking children to play. She identified the Jewish children, was offering them sweets and getting information on where they lived. She also denounced her own friend from school-times, whom she met accidentally on street one day .
– Eliezer Grünbaum. Son of Izaak Grünbaum- leader of Zionist Party and Member of Polish Parliament. Eliezer, to his father’s disgrace, was a communist. He took part in the war in Spain, he found himself in Auschwitz, later was liberated in Buchenwald. After the liberation he was brought to the Colleagues Court for his cruelty and brutality towards prisoners. After the war he was a communist activist. During a trip to France, he got identified as a kapo on a Parisian street. Thanks to his father’s intervention, he made to escape Court responsibility, and he emigrated to Palestine. He died in 1948 in war for independence.
– – –
Information on source:
(Gazeta Wyborcza 2-3 June 2007) – “Zaglada Zydow. Studia i materialy” – an annual published by the Polish Center for Holocaust Research at the Institute of Philosophy and Sociology of the Polish Academy of Science
http://www.holocaustresearch.pl
http://www.zagladazydow.org/zaglada-archiwum(2).htm

4 06 2007
Anonymous

You can spew you out your venom and continue your dumb, sarcastic jokes but you will never answer my question (would you build the most beautiful cathedrals to a Jew if he was not critical of other jews?) or be able to refute the following:

1. Poland wanted to hide the murderous acts perpetrated against the Jews in both Kielce and Jedwabne.
2. The Polish complicity in the Holocaust and Nazi war crimes is well established even if there was a “passive complicity”.
3. Poland was the only country after WW2 where the pogroms against the Jews took place.
4. Only 40 years ago the Polish government conducted another vicious anti-Semitic campaign. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Polish_political_crisis
6. The Jewish life in Poland was marked by constant tumult: from prosperity and respect to violence and anti-Semitism which has been deeply ingrained in the Polish culture and mentality
7. At one time 3/4 of the world’s Jewry lived in Poland. These days there are about 3000 Jews in Poland.
8. The 2 ethnic groups are very different in nature/outlook. Therefore, It is much better that the 2 groups are separated. Togetherness, getting on or liking/loving each other are not required but civility is.

4 06 2007
polishpress

no offensive language, i repeat! calling others dumb and vile is unnecessary and stupid.

I agree with nemeczek’s spoint that the freedom of speech must be absolute, but on the other hand you can use the freedom of speech without going into offensive language.

4 06 2007
goose

Hasn’t John/anon’s language and attitude has been offensive from the get-go?

Sarcasm may be necessary in certain circumstances and it is not necessarily stupid.

I also think it is a bit contradictory to say something/somebody is stupid when it is first stated not to say something/somebody is stupid.

More than a few very, most actually, Christologists (Christian and Jewish) have rooted Jesus of Nazareth squarely within Jewish tradition. Jesus was not more critical of certain aspects and practices of certain Jews than many other Jews of the time.

1.) Which Poland wanted to hide what happened? The government of Communist Poland, certainly. But since the end of Soviet control, there has now been an investigation, the studies continue, and official governmental and Catholic Church apologies have been made.

2.) The matter of some Polish complicity is established. How widespread it was is a matter of debate. The “mother’s milk” comment is about as offensive as anybody can get in a dialogue. And, why does John/anon never even consider the German/Nazi role?

3.) We need to consider the reasons for the problems in the immediate aftermath of WWII. Studies such as those of Jan Gross are valuable and should be appreciated but his conclusions are not the end-all of debate.

4.) Again, no differentiation as to goverments. And no consideration of the role of the Soviet Union whatsover.

5.) I won’t draw any conclusions from the gap here.

6.) There is no more one uniform Polish mentality than there is one uniform Jewish mentality.

7/8). The large number of Jews in Poland in the first place was/is testament to Polish tolerance. The dearth of Jews in Poland today is very predominantly the responsibility of Nazis and Soviets. Yes, there were and are some normative cultural and religious differences. If Poles and Jews should be separated, why encourage visitations from Israel?

4 06 2007
nemeczek

Anonymous,
You provide a link to a Wiki entry on the March 1968 events. How thoughtful of you to enlighten us on the events that are common knowledge in Poland. Why not read the following IN ITS ENTIRETY:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_Poland
We have a common past, a thousand years give or take, whether we like it or not. If you think your folks got a lousy deal in Poland over the centuries, so be it. Your perception of Poland and its inhabitants was shaped, most likely, at a young age either by your granny’s tales or by your school curriculum (if so, congrats to your local educators – they shaped the young mind the way they had intended). I could tell you a few Jewish stories my Polish grandma told me when I was a kid, but as a grown man I do not take them at face value. If anything, I find their naivety amusing. As a result, I do not feel like going on a crusade any time soon.
If your ramblings are designed to make any Pole less proud of his/her own country, you will not succeed. The effect will be opposite. Let me tell you a secret… the last thing we Poles appreciate is foreigners trying to participate in our own self-criticism (trust me, it is our favorite past time). That’s the way we are.

4 06 2007
goose

John/anon has been insisting that there are 3000 Jews left in Poland.

But according to the Moses Schorr Centre, there are approximately 100,000 Jews in Poland, of which 30,000 to 40,000 have some sort of direct connection to the Jewish community, either religiously or culturally.

Then again, could John/anon be a former Polish communist getting whatever jollies left to be had?

4 06 2007
nemeczek

goose:
I do not think anon is an ex-Commie, neo-Nazi, Muslim extremist, or a space invader. He is way too passionate and biased.
As most Jewish orphans (or soon-to-be orphans) who were sheltered by gentile families or nuns in II WW Poland were given fake birth and baptism certificates, there must be thousands of Poles who are unaware of their Jewish ancestry. After the war, it was simply easier to bring up these kids as Catholics.

4 06 2007
Anonymous

Hehhe…why don’t you try harder to figure me out so that it is easier for your kind to understand me? Keep bringing in the feelings of your grannies, grandpas, your observations, etc. as some other rudimentary analysis.

goose, FYI, the concept of Jesus (the polishpress already knows that the very name Jesus is of the Greek origin with no relevance to anything Jewish) and the normal Jews/Judaism are not compatible. Judaism is like a universe. It is limitless, rich, beautiful, powerful and it is based on the abstract premise. Eastern Europe is known for its many pogroms and hatred against the Jews in the name of Jesus. The Catholic church played a fundamental role in the anti-Jewish hatred on the Polish, German or Ukrainian soil.

The apology does a lot of good after the Jews of Europe were exterminated. Again, you are fortunate. You have a belief in a Jew who forgives you your crimes and sins so that you can quickly forget everything and start over from the clean slate and G-d forbid if some Israeli teenages/or some Jews who supposedly heard some stories from their grannies would remind you of your past.

…………and by the way, the Communist Poland was still Poland. Apparently, the insecure Polish communist regime had to focus the attention of the population away form the communists to some other group it could blame. Who else could they blame? The Jews. Why? Because the communists just like the Nazis understood the sentiment and the feelings of the general population toward the Jews. The Jews represented a perfect target.

It is for that very reason the European press seeking to improve the ratings and ultimately the profits is highly anti-Israel and it is for that very reason the so-called “humanists” used to flock to Gaza instead of Chechnya or Mindanao. Would anyone know or care if they are decapitated in Mindanao?

……….and please don’t make me laugh about the inflated Jewish numbers in Poland. I wish you were right though. In any case what have you been smoking?

4 06 2007
nemeczek

Anon: Trust me, I have no desire to understand you, but as a good doctor I am offering my diagnosis. Free of charge.

4 06 2007
goose

Again, “your kind.” This is Nazi-like terminology. Seems like a matter of identification with one’s oppressors.

Who cares if the name Jesus is of Greek origin? We are speaking of the same person, no? Again, to which concept of Jesus are you referring?

And to which concept of Judaism are you referring? I’m very sorry but I see your conceptualization of it as extremely narrow and limitiing. You think your version is that of the norm? I’m sure I can easily find many thousands of Jewish scholars and many more non-scholars who will thoroughly disagree with you. My guess is that the majority disagree with you. But granted, the majority isn’t always right.

It seems to me that you are almost incapable of seeing the “thee in me.”
Where is your consideration of “the other” other than to completely condemn him/her and all his/her ancestors and damn him/her for all future generations? And it does not seem to me that you allow for any apology, repentence or redemption. Is that really what Judaism is about?

Also, I don’t need any Isreali teenagers with problems controlling their bowel movements to remind me of my past. I am quite capable of reading Jewish and Polish attempts at dialogue and engaging in such myself (even though I don’t consider our give and take a dialogue).

Did you ever hear the motto prominent during the Solidarity era: “Let Poland be Poland?” Why do you think it resonated among the Polish populace so profoundly and deeply? Because Poland was not Poland under Soviet domination.

And those were not my numbers but the numbers projected by the Moses Schorr Centre. Even the numbers advanced by Lucy Dawidowicz make a mockery of your claims (or your ability do do simple math).

If you want to do your ancestors and your religious kin justice, at least either be honest and forthright — or take a developmental math course.

4 06 2007
polishpress

goose, don’t be cross:) you are right, and I was tired and felt that since I reacted in John–anon’s case I’m obliged to do so now. You are also probably right, my definition of ‘offence’ as reffering only ad personam, not to actions, is incomplete – and I shouldn’t have said what I said.

As to the topic, I was going to reply to Johns 8 points, but goose wonderfully did that for me.

I will say something different, that shocked me today a bit. A Dutch friend of mine visited, and we were talking also about this matter. He told me how he came to Poland for a trip in the ’80, and visited Auschwitz. At that time his official Auschwitz museum guide there was concentrating solely on Polish victims… not even a mention about Jews. There was a table with signs of the categories of people persecuted there, among them David’s star was somewhere to the end (pink triangle was missing). It was very hard for me to imagine how was that possible, since extermination of Jews was the main purpose of the camp, but he’s a person I can trust, and I believe what he said.
And it left me thinking – what impression could foreign people like him get then? They didn’t have to know the nuances of communist rule, they just saw what they saw, and heard what they heard.

4 06 2007
goose

Actually, polishpress, after having attempted dialogue and repetively having been insulted with the refrain about Polish mother’s milk, I opted for biting humorous sarcasm, which I guess was missed by most folks.

I suppose I was too disingeneous since my attempts seem to have fallen far short of accomplishing what I hoped.

For folks who are genuinely interested in reflective Polish-Jewish dialogue, I posted the title and some details about a recently published book in the US in the comments section under the Michnik article. It includes articles by Polish, Israeli and American scholars. It would be nice if the Israeli students visiting Poland — and Polish students in some way hosting them — could both make use of the book for to appreciate more nuanced and detailed historical backgrounds and perspectives — as diverse as they are.

5 06 2007
Anonymous

It is nice to know there is so much love and affection between the 2 Poles.

So, when the communists were in power Poland was not Poland? What was it? Nigeria?

What a pathetic excuse? It is the same excuse you keep repeating over and over. The persecution of Jews in 1968 is not the Polish fault. Yeah, right! As if the Polish communists were the transplants from India and were not born and raised in Poland.

It is also nice to know. polishpress, that your kind trusts some dutchman.

As for the concept of Jesus, can you please quote me a Jew who believes in Judaism and who considers Jesus a messiah? I will be anxiously waiting.

Do you think the Jewish parents would pick the name of Greek origin for their son?

Why do you even need to Polish-Jewish dialogue. Everything has been said what needed to be said. There are almost no Jews in Poland left. Ohh…wait, everybody should trust the numbers of some pane Lucy Dawidowicz. Thanks for a good laugh.

Since everything Jewish raises your curiosity this is the only statistical data you should consider and trust.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html

The above is very, very, very accurate and remember Just because some nutcase likes to think that he/she is of the Jewish origin it ain’t necessarily so.

No wonder Poland has been in a sorry state of affairs. If everybody in Poland thinks like the 2 of you Poland will continue to wallow in problems. The good thing the 2 ethnicities are no longer adversaries. Poland was cleansed out of Jews so now you will have blame somebody else for all your inadequacies.

You have neutralized your Western front and my tax dollars are providing the NATO shield for your beautiful country but you still have to remember, the Russians are not like the Jews. They are not going anywhere. You will always be close to them. Congratulations!

5 06 2007
blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz
5 06 2007
goose

John/anon:

Do you take full responsibility for everything your government does? Then you are responsible for the US not doing enough for the Jews during WWII and thereafter.

You are responsible for denying entrance to the US of the SS St. Louis, a passenger ship full of Jewish refugees, in 1939.

You are responsible for failing to press for passage of the Wagner bill, which had called for the admission of 20,000 ‘German’ refugee children. The term ‘German’ was used instead of ‘Jewish’ in the draft of the bill because of the prevailing American aversion to bringing in Jewish refugees.

There’s so much more, but I’ll leave it at that.

Why do you, as an American Jew, hate European Jews so much?

Who ever suggested that all Jews viewed Jesus as the Messiah? But you forget that some Jews did. And those Jews gradually started a new religion. Last I looked and since you are so big on majorities, more people in the world believe in Christ as the Messiah than in Judaism.

Why should a Greek translator use only Aramaic names? Sorta defeats the purposes of translation, no?

You show that you have no clue as to the Jewish identity of Lucy Dawidowicz, dismissing her as some “pane” (sic). Was she (rip) a nutcase? Is everybody in the Moses Schorr Centre a nutcase? Why do you hate European Jews so much?

You obviously also dismiss all Jews who no longer devoutly practice their faith, rituals, etc. as not Jewish. They cannot be counted as Jews according to your perspective. Gee, then can you at least try to understand why Polish communists are not considered Polish? And I won’t even get into the details about Polish Jews who were prominent Polish communists.

Finally, ah yes, your American tax dollars. Maybe they should be taken away from funding Israel, too? How long could Israel survive without American tax dollars? Let’s face it, regardless of whether it is right or wrong: American aid to Israel is the biggest welfare program the world has ever know.

5 06 2007
Anonymous

Yeah, there were a few dark chapters in the American history concerning the Jews but overall America is a sweet land while Poland was and still is very, very bitter. Ohh…I forgot it is not the Polish fault that it has been bitter. It somebody else’s fault. Regardless, it was not a good country then and it is still a lousy place. The intelligent Poles who want a better life flock to the USA leaving the local mentality and outlook back in Poland.

So, what that some Jews raised in Poland with he Polish mentality and outlook were communists? What is the point?

Only a deranged mind would suggest that I despise the Poles or the European Jews. I feel sorry for the Chinese communists who interprete the US Constitution just as I feel sorry for some Polish Catholics/atheists/or bi-polars who interprete Judaism and the word of Torah. One can stand on his head or bark to the Moon and continue to claim that you he/she is Jewish. It is a free world. Just like you have a fantasy that communist Poland was not Poland but Nigeria or Turkmenistan you can continue to fantacize that a Jew born to a Jewish mother and accepting Buddha, Rajnish, Jesus or the Moon did not abdicate all his rights as a Jew.

There are many schizos in this world.

As for the Greeek or Bengali translation, you hit the nail on the head. Any translation or interpetation is subjective. It is the man’s word rather the G-d’s word. You are reading an interpretation written by the people who interpreted some other people’s interpretation. The Jews read the book in its original language rather than some subjective translation. So, keep believing some interpretation. It is a free world.

The US funding to represents 1.5% of Israel’s GNP. The rest is going toward repayment of the loans. The biggest supporters of Israel in the USA are not the Jews but Evangelical Christians. Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East with the values similar to American and democracies stick together. In any case, the anti-Semitic mind always bringsup Israel even when the discussion is about Poland. America derives a lot of benefits from the democratic Jewish state of Israel. What benefits do we derive from your kind/or country?

5 06 2007
Polish Jewish Socialdemocrat

America has “dark chapters” concerning Jews, Indians, slavery & black people, people dying because of lack of medical care, homelessness, low-paid jobs making millions of people live below the poverty line, making profits from slave-labour in third world, installing America-friendly dictatorships in far away lands, making profits from destroying natural environment, and millions of deaths a year caused by US-promoted nicotine and alcohol products, and high-calorie food, all advertised and profited by US companies under the “free trade” slogans – and protected by the corrupted and lobby-driven American political system. The system your country created is no better then communism, it is even worse, but its evil are better hidden.

and so on and so forth but it is “sweet”
yeah right

While Poland is “bitter”…

And you said other people here we putting feelings before the facts? You make me laugh. Gosh, get two people like you, and wars could last forever.

You are one of those brainwashed Americans who believe USA is the best place on Earth. I prefer Poland, thankyouverymuch. Or Sweden, or Iceland, or Czech Republic, or Eire, or Slovenia, or any European country.

America is responsible for more deaths then any other country in the world. This is your personal responsibility, what are you going to do about it? Will you say sorry at least?

And why your government did nothing to prevent Holocaust?? Poland had lost the September Campaign, and existed no more. USA could have done something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Betrayal

5 06 2007
Robert

Wow. After reading through the comments on this post I feel disheartened. The sad fact is that Anonymous/John is not the type that responds to reasoned discussion, and the even sadder fact is that he would most likely not dare to be as aggressive in person. But we all know it’s easy to be offensive and hurtful when you’re hiding behind a computer screen. Thank you, Polishpress, for this blog, though…it’s good to disseminate information so people can – ideally – benefit from it. On a general note, the level of misinformation or lack of information about issues such as Polish/Jewish relations in Western media simply means that individuals like Anonymous can continue to operate in a relative vacuum. To mention an example germane to this discussion — in the United States, the writings of Jan Tomasz Gross on this issue are universally accepted in higher education. I cannot count the number of times I have seen Gross’ polemics referenced as indisputable fact…in American media, at least. European press appears to have a bit more balance on the issue. Anyway, thanks again. I’ll be checking this blog frequently from now on!

5 06 2007
goose

John/anon wrote: “The biggest supporters of Israel in the USA are not the Jews but Evangelical Christians.”

So John/anon, you talk the talk. When are you going to walk the walk and ante up? Why don’t American Jews support Israel to the extent Evangelical Christians do? (Such a claim is absolute nonsense and derogatory towards American Jews, but I’ll play along).

Let’s see. The Evangelical Christians, not living in the Holy Land, want to see Israel and all of the Middle East blown up to smitherines so they can reap the rewards of the Rapture. Hey, guess who’s going to be “left behind?”

5 06 2007
goose

And according to your favorite source, John/anon, the Jewish Virtual Library states that the US has provided $96,765,600,000 dollars in assistance to Israel. Chicken-scratch, yea.

But my guess is that estimate is skewed rather low.

The reality is that the US bilaterally appropriates at least $3 billion a year to Israel. Most folks estimate theres’ another 2 billion or so hidden away in various departmental budgets but I won’t consider that in the following:

Israel is the single largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid, getting nearly one-third of the total direct bi-lateral aid. Exclude Egypt (whose disproportionate share of aid came as a result of agreements made with Israel at Camp David), and Columbia ( which receives enormous aid aimed at drug trafficking), Israel receives more than all of Latin America, the Caribbean, and Africa combined. So from the US alone, Israel with around 6 million people, receives more aid than two entire continents including some of the poorest regions in the world. This aid amounts to at least $500 per year for every Israeli citizen.

5 06 2007
Maciekqbn

Amazing. It looks that USA is a real ‘good uncle’ for the State of Israel. Wow!

But it is their (US’) money and let them do what they want to do with it.

On the other hand, no American money paid for NATO support Poland in any way (as John/anon suggested). I would say more – Poland pay a lot of money to US companies for spendings related with our NATO membership (eg. F16). There are a lot of such examples. From the average tax payer in Poland these are wasted money.

5 06 2007
Maciekqbn

And a complete waste of money and our soldiers life is the fact that Polish Army takes part in American mess in Iraq and Afganistan. That is the price that we pay for our membership in NATO (as Polish gov. claims). But what do we have in return? Disrespect from American citizens like mantioned before John/anon.

5 06 2007
nemeczek

goose: If you happen to watch American televangelists (say Hal Lindsey) in action you would notice their support for the state of Israel is genuinely wholehearted. Apparently, the only thing Christians have to worry about is radical Islam and, in particular, those pesky Palestinians. The televangelists’ mantra is designed to scare/warn people about an apparently impending final clash between East and West at the battle of Armageddon (all sings are out there, so do not make any long-term plans), the Antichrist at the helm of the EU (!?), and the forthcoming Russian military action in the Middle East. It is pre-determined, so we are all doomed. Have a good night’s sleep…

5 06 2007
blazej

An article I came across today. Its off-topic, but we’re very off-topic anyway – and this may interest you

http://bsimmons.wordpress.com/2007/06/05/polish-girl%e2%80%99s-holocaust-diary-unveiled/

Polish girl’s Holocaust diary unveiled

By ARON HELLER

JERUSALEM — The diary of a 14-year-old Jewish girl dubbed the “Polish Anne Frank” was unveiled on Monday, chronicling the horrors she witnessed in a Jewish ghetto – at one point watching a Nazi soldier tear a Jewish baby away from his mother and kill him with his bare hands.

The diary, written by Rutka Laskier in 1943 shortly before she was deported to Auschwitz, was released by Israel’s Holocaust museum more than 60 years after she recorded what is both a daily account of the horrors of the Holocaust in Bedzin, Poland and a memoir of the life of a teenager in extraordinary circumstances.

“The rope around us is getting tighter and tighter,” the teenager wrote in 1943, shortly before she was deported to Auschwitz. “I’m turning into an animal waiting to die.”

Within a few months Rutka was dead and, it seemed, her diary lost. But last year, a Polish friend who had saved the notebook finally came forth, exposing a riveting historical document.

“Rutka’s Notebook” . The 60-page memoir includes innocent adolescent banter, concerns and first loves – combined with a cold analysis of the fate of European Jewry.

Some 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis during World War II, after European Jews were herded into ghettos, banned from most jobs and forced to wear yellow stars to identify them.

“I simply can’t believe that one day I will be allowed to leave this house without the yellow star. Or even that this war will end one day. If this happens I will probably lose my mind from joy,” she wrote on Feb. 5, 1943.

“The little faith I used to have has been completely shattered. If God existed, He would have certainly not permitted that human beings be thrown alive into furnaces, and the heads of little toddlers be smashed with gun butts or shoved into sacks and gassed to death.”

Reports of the gassing of Jews, which were not common knowledge in the West by then, apparently had filtered into the Bedzin ghetto, which was near Auschwitz, Yad Vashem experts said.

The following day she opened her entry with a heated description of her hatred toward her Nazi tormentors. But then, in an effortless transition, she described her crush on a boy named Janek and the anticipation of a first kiss.

“I think my womanhood has awoken in me. That means, yesterday when I was taking a bath and the water stroked my body, I longed for someone’s hands to stroke me,” she wrote. “I didn’t know what it was, I have never had such sensations until now.”

Later that day, she shifted back to her harsh reality, describing how she watched as a Nazi soldier tore a Jewish baby away from his mother and killed him with his bare hands.

The diary chronicles Rutka’s life from January to April 1943. She shared it with her friend Stanislawa Sapinska, who she met after Rutka’s family moved into a home owned by Sapinska’s family, which had been confiscated by the Nazis to be included in the Bedzin ghetto. Sapinska came to inspect the house and the girls – one Jewish, one Christian – formed a deep bond.

When Rutka feared she would not survive, she told her friend about the diary. Sapinska offered to hide it in the basement under the floorboards. After the war, she returned to reclaim it.

“She wanted me to save the diary,” Sapinska, now in her 80s, recalled Monday. “She said ‘I don’t know if I will survive, but I want the diary to live on, so that everyone will know what happened to the Jews.’”

Sapinska stashed the diary in her home library for more than 60 years. She said it was a precious memento and thought it to be too private to share with others. Only at the behest of her young nephew did she agree to hand it over last year.

“He convinced me that it was an important historical artifact,” she said in Polish.

In 1943, Rutka was the same age as Anne Frank, the Dutch teenager whose Holocaust diary has become one of the most widely read books in the world. Yad Vashem said Rutka’s newly discovered diary was authenticated by experts and Holocaust survivors.

Rutka’s father, Yaakov, was the family’s only survivor. He died in 1986. But unlike Anne Frank’s father, he kept his painful past inside. After the war, he moved to Israel, where he started a new family. His Israeli daughter, Zahava Sherz, said her father never spoke of his other children, and the diary introduced her to the long-lost family she never knew.

“I was struck by this deep connection to Rutka,” said Sherz, 57. “I was an only child, and now I suddenly have an older sister. This black hole was suddenly filled, and I immediately fell in love with her.”

“I have a feeling that I am writing for the last time,” Rutka wrote on Feb. 20, 1943, as Nazi soldiers began gathering Jews outside her home for deportation.

“I wish it would end already! This torment; this is hell. I try to escape from these thoughts of the next day, but they keep haunting me like nagging flies. If only I could say, it’s over, you only die once … but I can’t, because despite all these atrocities, I want to live, and wait for the following day.”

However, Rutka would write again. Her last entry was dated April 24, 1943, and her last written words were: “I’m very bored. The entire day I’m walking around the room. I have nothing to do.”

In August, she and her family were sent to Auschwitz, where she is believed to have been killed upon arrival.

Posted by Ted Belman

6 06 2007
Anonymous

Polishpress, that is true America is stupid. We should have let the Russians move down to Paris. The Polish Soviet Socialist Republic has a sweet ring to it. The French Soviet Socialist Republic sounds even sweeter. Hehehe…I am not worried for your kind. Some day the Russian bear will rise again and when it rises it will be ferocious. Whether you like it or not you are stuck with that wild animal for good. Good Luck!

As for the USA being the best land on this planet, it is the case. That is why millions of Poles abandoned their ugly dump and settled in the good Ol’ US of A.

……..and by the way, stay in Europe, the Auschwitz continent and, please remember, polishpress, we owe you and your kind nothing more than crap.

Yeah, Robert, hehe…please tell me you are a licensed psychologist. Why should I be aggressive toward the Poles? Their land has been partitioned 3 times in the last 100 years. Their mentality is twisted. Warsaw is one of the ugliest cities in Europe. It does not know what it is. It has no image. The land is haunted and is associated with the Holocaust. The Polish climate is at least as bad as the viral diarrhea and the Polish food stinks. In general Poland is cold, uninteresting, weird and relatively poor. It is also highly corrupt. We need to feel sorry for that pitiful place.

Goose, I agree with you that the evangelical christian support for Israel is a double-edged sword. However, Israel needs friends. Europe is inherently anti-Semitic. So, Israel has to take to best option it has. As for the aid to Israel, it is has been supported by most members of the US congress/senate and not the issue. We get a lot of benefits from Israel. What do we get for supporting the world dumps like Poland? How many scientists are in Poland? How many Nobel Prize winners come from Poland? What has Poland excelled in? Hatred? What else the Polish entity is known for? Yeah, Auschwitz, but what else?

Maciekqbn, good observation, the fact that it is the US money and the US can spend it as it wishes is totally overlooked. The anti-Semitic voices emanating from Poland are no different from the anti-Semitic voices in Sudan. What bugs them is that the Jews and Israel are being supported and Israel not only exists but also repells the enemies. Moreover, unlike Poland, Israel produces the Nobel Prize winners.

Maciekqbn, please note once and forever, Poland needs the USA much more than USA needs Poland. In fact, the USA does not need Poland but Poland needs the USA and NATO.

nemeczek, Islam is scary to the Christians a lot more than to the Jews. Jews don’t bother anyone. They read the Torah, pray, study, produce good doctors, businessman, make good movies, remember the past, take notes of the current events, etc. Jews do not missionize anyone. On the other hand, if you do not submit to the radical Islam you either get indoctrinated or decapitated.

blazej, do you think a Jewish WW2 eyewitness account is of any interest to these guys? They would much rather talk about the scatological gifs left by the Israeli teenages on the Polish soil.

6 06 2007
polishpress

John are you ok? You started dismissing things I have never said…
is it x files tune sounding in the background?

Well you should check sources. Not that it matters, but since you use this argument: Israel “has” 8 Nobel price winners, while Poland “has” 16.
And FYI: In 1364, in Kraków, the Jagiellonian University, founded by King Casimir III, became one of Europe’s great early universities. In 1773 King Stanislaus Augustus Poniatowski established his Commission on National Education (Komisja Edukacji Narodowej), the world’s first state ministry of education.

Today, Poland has more than a hundred tertiary education institutions; traditional universities to be found in its major cities of Białystok, Bydgoszcz, Gdańsk, Katowice, Kraków, Lublin, Łódź, Olsztyn, Opole, Poznań, Rzeszów, Szczecin, Toruń, Warsaw, Wrocław and Zielona Góra as well as technical, medical, economic institutions elsewhere, employing around 61,000 workers. There are also around 300 research and development institutes, with about 10,000 more researchers. In total, there are around 91,000 scientists in Poland today.

6 06 2007
A reader

Blazej, in the article you posted, there is not a single sentence to indicate that the Nazis were German. Just another attempt at whitewash by “their kind.”

6 06 2007
blazej

mhm true.. didnt even notice – for me it’s obvious. seeing comments here and there, for others it isn’t…

6 06 2007
goose

John/anon wrote: and by the way, stay in Europe, the Auschwitz continent and, please remember, polishpress, we owe you and your kind nothing more than crap.

Well, John that’s all you’ve given us. Such a contribution. I’m sure you’ll be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize this year. Or for a new biofuel invention.

6 06 2007
nemeczek

Anon wrote: “and by the way, stay in Europe, the Auschwitz continent and, please remember, polishpress, we owe you and your kind nothing more than crap.”
AT LAST on topic! It took you a long while but you finally got there. So the Israeli kids shitting in beds, sinks, etc. in Polish hotels are actually repaying ‘our kind’ a certain debt. I would have never guessed. Probably, it takes a Nobel Prize winner’s mind to come up with this. But if it is in any way cathartic to these folks, I am all for it. However, if Poland is nothing but a huge Jewish cemetery (which it isn’t, by any stretch) and it sucks big time (it does not), is it not a bit disrespectful to the memory of your own people?
A reader & blazej: Well spotted. I also find it rather irritating when the esoteric ‘Nazis’ are blamed for the evil of the II WW. I can understand today’s Germans who are sick and tired of having to be apologetic all the time but there is no need to sanitize the past. Had the Nazi Party invaded Poland, it would have been obliterated upon crossing the border. It was the German state and the muscle of the German armed forces that set Europe ablaze.
blazej: Curious if Ryfka wrote her diary in Yiddish or Polish. The English translation seems a bit too poetic for a young teen.

6 06 2007
Anon

It looks like your kind can only spew out either the venom or emotions.

What Polish achievements does the world know of? Do you have a company like IBM or Microsoft?

You can create 1000000 educational/research centers but if they produce nothing of value do you know where you can stick them in?

What product/innovation of some significance has been created by your kind?

I always get a kick seeing how your kind goobles up the Hollywood movies created by none other than the Polish, Hungarian, Russian Jewish refugees or their offsprings.

So, do you think America needs Poland? Do you think we need Poland more than you need America? hehehe……………

You’ve got to love the Russian bear. Poland is blessed to be right on the border. LOL….When the bear switches off the valves all Euros will get on its knees and crawl to the US for assistance.

6 06 2007
goose

John/anon, you say all you consider Poland to be is a Jewish graveyard.

And then you encourage Isreali student visitors to crap on it.

So you encourage desecration.

Sad fact: Nobody needs you.

Consider yourself forgotten.

6 06 2007
goose

Another recent book from the American Jewish Committee published in English that will soon be published in Polish and Hebrew:

Difficult Questions Volume Aims to Deepen Polish-Jewish Understanding

February 19, 2007 – New York – Difficult Questions in Polish-Jewish Dialogue, co-published by the American Jewish Committee and the Forum for Dialogue Among Nations, is the latest initiative to deepen understanding between young American Jews and Poles.

“It is our earnest hope that this unique volume will contribute to enhanced understanding and thereby strengthen the foundation of friendship and shared commitment between Poland and world Jewry for generations to come,” said AJC Executive Director David A. Harris.

“Since the restoration of democracy in Poland in 1989, a promising new era in ties between that country and the Jewish people has been established,” said Harris.

“AJC, which has long been recognized for its constructive approach to complex relationships across religious, ethnic and national boundaries, was among the very first Jewish groups to engage post-Communist Poland. In much of that work, our partner has been the Warsaw-based Forum for Dialogue Among the Nations,” Harris continued. “Indeed, this book is an outgrowth of that valued partnership.”

Difficult Questions is an innovative approach to deepening understanding. As the editors note, the history that is learned in schools by young American and Israeli Jews is an entirely different version from what young Poles are taught. The chasm between the two narratives about the past is impossible to bridge without each side understanding the perspectives and concerns of the other.

“The book responds to actual questions posed principally by young people interested in the link between Poland and world Jewry. The answers reflect a range of thought-provoking viewpoints and narratives,” said Harris, the son of Holocaust survivors and a leading pioneer in advancing Polish-Jewish understanding.

The questions and answers focus on Polish-Jewish relations in Poland before and during the Holocaust, memory and knowledge in Poland about the Holocaust, current issues in Polish-Jewish relations and in Polish-Israeli relations, the status of the Jewish community in Poland today, and what the future bodes for advancing Polish-Jewish relations.

“Today, Poles and Jews living in Poland, under conditions of freedom and democracy, have the right to expect answers to many apparently straightforward questions about their history,” writes Professor Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, former foreign minister of Poland, in the book’s preface.

The Difficult Questions project began with an analysis of more than a thousand questionnaires gathered from young Poles and Jews in Poland, the U.S., Israel, Canada and Australia who have participated in youth programs in Poland during the past fifteen years. Fifty of the most important and representative questions were chosen. Answers are provided by distinguished Jewish and Polish experts in history, sociology, Polish-Jewish relations and religion.

Approximately three and a half million Jews lived in Poland on the eve of World War II, comprising ten percent of the country’s’ population. Today, about 20,000 Jews live in Poland. Israel and Poland today enjoy strong diplomatic and commercial ties.

With offices in Jerusalem and Warsaw, AJC has long played a central role in furthering Polish-Jewish relations. AJC was the first nongovernmental organization to publicly support the inclusion of Poland in the first round of NATO expansion in 1999, sponsors the National Polish American-Jewish American Council in the U.S., and partnered with the Polish government to build a fitting memorial at the site of the Belzec death camp.

Difficult Questions was made possible with the support of the Taube Foundation for Jewish Life and Culture; the Task Force for International Cooperation on Holocaust Education, Memory, and Research; and the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

The book is available in English from AJC, in Polish from the Forum for Dialogue, and a Hebrew edition is expected later this year.

6 06 2007
nemeczek

anon: drifting off topic again, huh? Emotions are not an acne outbreak, so there is no need to be ashamed of them. And contrary to the urban legend, Poles are not venomous, either. These are the two simple lessons for you for today. I am not going to legitimize your nonsense by getting into an argument on other issues you brought up. They are just plain silly, and deep down you know it.

6 06 2007
Anon

Goose, you cares about the sentiments between Poland and the Jews? The Jews have moved on. It is your country which has to deal with Kielce, Birkenau. Russians, Nazis or Jedwabne. So far you have not done a good job. Surprised?

nemeczek, yeah! Sorry to rub in the truth about your land. Look in the mirror and face the truth. You are irrelevant and there is nothing of value has been created outside your entity. It is forever haunted and will be known as the Jewish graveyard.

6 06 2007
polishpress

goose, seems very interesting, just like the book you mentioned in your comment to Adam Michnik’s article.
i think i’ll get a copy..

having read comments on ynet.co.il and here, i see how serious this issue is, and how needed is a change in what the authors of aforementioned publication defined here: “the history that is learned in schools by young American and Israeli Jews is an entirely different version from what young Poles are taught. The chasm between the two narratives about the past is impossible to bridge without each side understanding the perspectives and concerns of the other.”

i hope this change can be achieved and bridges built with good will and unprejudiced attitude of both sides.

7 06 2007
Anon

Yeah. polishpress the victims of Jedwabne need to understand the polish murderers and figure out what motivated them to commit murders against the Jews. I bet your kind also tries to understand the Arab terrorists.

Let us try to understand all criminals and what drives them to commit their horrendous crimes.

The Jewish pain, polishpress, is not your problem. We have moved on and will go on living. Unlike your kind, we know our history and we have the records. You deal with your own problems be that corruption, anti-Semitism, hiding the past or claiming that the communist Poland was not Poland.

7 06 2007
Anon

By the way, you type in and it does not register.

Yeah, polishpress, the Jews should re-write their records and history and make the Poles feel better about themselves. Yeah, let’s all understand the Jedwabne murderers and what motivated them to commit the horrendous crimes. I bet your kind also tries to figure out the Arab terrorists and why they blow up the Israeli pizza parlors, schools, discos, buses or wedding receptions.

FYI, the Jewish pain is not your problem. We have lived with it. We have moved on and we will go on living. We don’t hate the Poles or Poland. Worry about your past and how you see yoursel. The Jews are secure in their skin. Don’t try to convince us that you were the sufferers too or that the communist Poland was in fact Nigeria rather than Poland.

You have your stuff and we have ours. Missionizing the Jews/or selling the Jews your convictions like the Catholics missionized the Jews with Jesus will not do anyone a favor.

7 06 2007
Anon

Polishpress, why don’t you ask the Jews to change their narrative to make the Poles feel better about themselves?

7 06 2007
nemeczek

polishpress: For the record, I need to voice my objection to your blocking Anon/john from contributing. In my opinion, it was not called for.

7 06 2007
polishpress

contributing?

7 06 2007
nemeczek

polishpress: I know… :-) But still there was no need to muzzle him. As long as he did not make any threats against you, your family, or our dear minister Giertych, he was still a valid participant. At least, he was very passionate about his convictions – I respected it.

7 06 2007
polishpress

whatever muzzle means:) I don’t think being passionate about one’s convictions is something worth respect

rydzyk’s equally passionate, but I don’t guess someone would say he should be respected for that, hitler’s been passionate, stalin’s been passionate in his convictions

depends what you’re passionate about

7 06 2007
nemeczek

polishpress: it is very easy to respect people we agree with but, thankfully, there are many individuals whose opinions challenge our own convictions. We can suppress them or we can try to win them over. The former is easy, the latter difficult. But you are the boss, so I am not that ‘passionate’ about your own policies.

8 06 2007
Anon

yeah…the polishpress and many others want the Jews to re-write the Jewish narrative to make the Poles feel better about their ugly past. Yeah, try to re-write the Jedwabne pogrom. Should it sound like this? The Poles were emotionally disturbled, upset and angry so they rounded up the Jews and burned them in a barn. Do you feel better now or you still need the psychiatric assistance?

The fact of the matter is the Jewish pain is not your problem. The Jews have moved on and the Jewish tragedy on the Polish soil will be forever marked as the greatest tragedy in the Jewish history. You cannot do anything about it. The Jews will not hate the Poles or Poland and we will go on building a better future. You solve your own problems whatever they are.

8 06 2007
nemeczek

Anon:
I am glad to learn the Jews will not hate the Poles or Poland because for a short moment I was beginning to wonder. You are right, the Jewish pain is not our problem and vice versa. We have our own victims we need to remember but, on top of it, we also remember and honor yours. Somehow I doubt you ever spare a moment to remember murdered goyim – they are just a mass, a number (probably inflated). Besides they hated/hate you, so why bother. Trust me, it is not mere PR – the Poles in Poland do not do ‘the remembering’ because it looks good on TV. If anything, we do it for our kids, so they know what the evil is. As far as the Kielce and Jedwabne massacres are concerned, they have been thoroughly discussed in Poland. Most of the perpetrators have been punished long time ago. Those who have not are burning in Hell by now. I think I touched on all the valid points you made. I am off to live my life, so I will not be able to respond to your future posts. Take care.

8 06 2007
Anon

Those who hate never succeed. Take a look at the 22 Arab states (brutal dictatorships). Also, take a look at Poland. What is a doctor’s or teacher’s salary in your country? How about your corruption or constant strikes? You don’t need to answer me what contribution the Polish research centers make. Poland is backward for a reason. Poland is vulnerable for a reason. There is also a very good reason why millions of Poles who came to America became very successful and prosperous. I don’t need to put Poland down neither do I need to rub in the Polish inadequacies. They are there. In general, the anti-Semitic countries suffer. If they don’t suffer immediately they suffer later but suffer they will.

It was dumb to even notice and make a big or small deal out of the Israeli teenage behavior. The intelligent people would have just rolled their eyes and moved on. The proud and secure people don’t pay attention at the small stuff. Even if they made a mess at some hotel it still was not a big deal either. You just wash it down, clean it up, forget about it and focus on something more important and constructive. It was too small of an event to even write or worry about.

However, the Polish complex of insecurity, the wounded Polish pride, anger, prejudice, etc. went into the gear and an issue was created. Everybody started digging up the past, bringing in the hurt, opening up the wounds, explaining the Polish position and Polish suffering.

How can the Poles insist that Jews sympathize with their suffering when 99.9% of Polish Jews were turned into ash on the Polish soil? The Poles who helped some Jews escape the gas chambers have been gratefully acknowledged. The few Jews who were spared wanted to forget their Polish experiences. They are almost all gone now anyway. They did not have the good memories but they did have the guilt and miserable feelings that they remained alive while their kids, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, cousins, friends and neighbors were all murdered.

9 06 2007
Ruth klein

hypocrite people

Israel is the most Islamophobic country in the world.

9 06 2007
Ruth klein

Islamophobia is acceptable, but ansitsemitism not.

Typical Jewish Hypocrisy

9 06 2007
dorothy schuster

They Must Go
by Meir Kahane

I hate this jewish hypocrisy as well

9 06 2007
dorothy schuster

I hate this jewish hypocrisy/arrogance as well

10 06 2007
A Goy

After the Hate law, maybe we shoud protect the chosen nation by abandoning our countries so that they can travell sefely across them. I’m mean that’s the least we could do for the nation od semi-gods. Some of us believe thet one of them 2000 years ago was God himself, the Creator.
http://www.iamthewitness.com

10 06 2007
Richard

I have been to Israel and seen how dirty and filthy it is there. You can’t believe that people are fighting for the place. Israelis need to teach there children to be clean, and how to act like civilized human beings, and not like animals. If they are the Chosen of God, they need to start acting like it. Cleanliness is next to godliness.

10 06 2007
metadave

A smelly Khazar supperior to an Aryan? The lowest Slavic inbecile is 300 steps higher in evolution than these Mongolien barabiens with their inhuman behavior traits! Inbecile barbariens incapable of higher thought but believing themselves to be the highest step in evolution^^

You people will soon enough get what you deserve for all the genocides you have commited and all the races you have degereated.

10 06 2007
polishpress

metadave, some teenagers’ behaviour does not allow you or anyone else, to talk like that about Jewish people. this is not a place for ANY KIND of fascism, racism or xenophobia

this article is not driven by negative prejudice to Jews by any means, but by desire for dialogue and mutual-understanding of Poles and Jews – which the current policies of Israel are not encouraging.

10 06 2007
Anon

How many people in Europe know the names of the Indian or Chinese prime ministers? Yet, most know the leaders of Israel.

Yes and we are sick of it. The reason we know the Zionist leaders
is through their criminality. Israel is a rogue state neck deep in the
attacks of 9/11, an international mafia that will be humbled.

10 06 2007
metadave

@ polishpress

But it’s their usual behavior, just look how they thread the Palestinians! I consider such kind of behavior disgusting, every human being behaving like a human also deserves to be threated like a human!

The problem is that Jews (read Khazars) do not behave like humans but think of themself as supperior to everyone else. We are just “cattle” for them. These are not isolated cases, Jews always behave like this. It’s one of the reason why these people were thrown out of so many nations bevore.

10 06 2007
poprock

Israel is wondeful country! look this!
http://www.tonyrogers.com/news/suicide_bomber_residue.htm

10 06 2007
happy gay house

poprock, your point being?

10 06 2007
James

An anti-semite is not someone who hates Jews. They are someone the Zionists hate.

iamthewitness.com

10 06 2007
joy revision

but who are Zionists? Is there some clear definition? What is their aim?

10 06 2007
James

A Zionist is ANYONE who supports that Tumor on the earth called “Israel”.

11 06 2007
Anon

LOL… this site has attracted the the human waste in the form of Ruth Klein, Dorothy, goy, James, etc. Well. it is another good lesson for the Poles. When you guys blame the Jews you will attract the dirt that will ruin all your efforts and eventually you will be mired in dirt yourself.

Polishpress, I don’t want to be rude but you will never get it. You cannot get it. It is not possible for you to get it. You are trapped in your stale thinking which from your delirious perspective of a Polish nationalist is new or modern. What you are trying to learn and invent others have already forgotten and everething has been tried.

I may sound cynical but unlike you I am not a combination of piss and vinegar. You desire to be innovative will lead you NOWHERE! The moment you open up the anti-Semitic or even anti-Israel gate every kind of haters snicks in. That is how it has always been and will continue to be.

11 06 2007
Book

If the Polish and Nazis were to blame why was all that real estate stolen from the Palestinians?

11 06 2007
Peter

Just a few facts for John/anonymous –

You are comparing Israel to Poland – well Israel is a police state which exists solely thanks to our american taxpayers money
Nobody really wants to live there anymore , even the Russian and American Jews are not crazy about moving there and who can blame them .

Poland is part of the European Union, which has more people and money than USA . Poland is in a phase of dynamic development, it is growing at around 4% annually and it is attracting all kinds of foreign investements while the real estate prices are reaching the levels of those in the USA(even West Coast) .

As for Krakow, it has always been the city of culture and learning, hosting
one of the oldest universities in the world , and it has always been a very liberal and accepting city towards all races and religions. It is an irony
that those Israeli teens are desecrating this ancient cultural center , including the beautifully restored Jewish Kazimierz . Polish authorities are extremely lenient trying to avoid being labelled anti-semitic but I assure you if this was in France or Italy those teens and their bodyguards would notfare that well,.

Also what irony that Israeli teens are allowed to have meetings and dialogue with German teens but not with Polish teens. Nazis were German for goodness sake. But wait, maybe it is because of the reparations that Germany is still paying- why interrupt the money flow???

My suggestion to Polish authorities in Krakow – let the Cracovia and Wisla soccer hooligans reroute some of those buses to Nowa Huta and give those Israeli hoodlums a different welcome…..

11 06 2007
Maciekqbn

I wonder why so many Jews (especialy American Jews who saw Europe only on TV) claim that Poles are anti-Semitic. In my background (at work) maybe 1-2 persons are active anti-Semites (but those persons also hate Russians, Germans and Poles thinking in a diffren way than they do), about 3-4 say that they don’t like Jews and the most of people here (about 100) is neutral about Jews and Istrael. What is interesting, there are 5 or 6 persens who strongly support Israel (Israel as a state that is an oposition to expanding Muslim culture although they say that American Jews
are dumb – funny, don’t you think?). I would say that you could find more people who dislike Germans/Russians/Americans and whoever than Jews.

To Anon: Please distinguish an average American and average European knowledge about a world. Most of people in Europe has a quite wide knowledge as this is a basic education in European schools. Meanwhile Americans (and especialy young Americans) know only a few facts about their own country (all they know is that this is reach, powerfull state, the best place for living all over the world) and thay know almost nothing about the world outside USA. Sad but true.

11 06 2007
Eye in the Sky

How can you blame someone (Pole) who was born after WOII for crimes most of their parents didn’t even commit? Emotions, puberty and tribalism truly clouds sound judgment.

Will the Germans still be paying Israel after all the Germans born before WOII are dead?

12 06 2007
Anon

Peter, I have always appreciated your anti-Semitic kind. There are Jews that think that the anti-Semites are no longer present. Such Jews march in the Tel Aviv gay pride parades, vote for the Arab parties in Israel, negotiate peace deals with the Arabs outside the government, advocate to bring the security fence down, provide the educational opportunities to the Arabs who claim the Palestinian identity and perform in the Arab theatres. They stand behind the persecuted gay Arabs who flee Jenin, Nablus or Ramallah only to find refuge in the police state of Israel. They also give refuge to the battered Arab women, the Sudanese refugees fleeing the Arab persecution and support the foreign labor force even when it is illegal. Thank you for defining Israel a police state. The leftist or the idealistic Jews need education and only you or your kind can provide it to them.

Krakow, Warsaw, Gdansk…heheh..please. Why don’t you name one spectacular innovation that came out of Poland? Can you please name a Polish Einstein? Again, I don’t need to put Poland down. Poland is still a backward state. It is true that the situation is improving but it has a very long way to go.

………..LOL….and, by the way, considering the base the 4% growth rate is not remarkable by any stretch of imagination.

As for the Israeli achievements even the anti-Semitic garbage of your kind cannot deny the following:

Facts about the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world’s population.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews at risk in Ethiopia to safety in Israel.

When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the world’s second elected female leader in modern times.

When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day – and saved three victims from the rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship – and the highest rate among women and among people over 55 – in the world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity.

Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as “conflict free.”

Israel has the world’s second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U.S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.

Israel has the highest per capita ratio of scientific publications in the world by a large margin, as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the US (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for VC funds right behind the US.

Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 is over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.

With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and start-ups, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world (apart from the Silicon Valley).

With an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16s, Israel has the largest fleet of the aircraft outside of the US.

Israel’s $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Motorola-Israel. Motorola built its largest development center worldwide in Israel.

Windows NT software was developed by Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

AOL’s instant message program was designed by an Israeli software company.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel

The city of Beer Sheva in Israel has the highest percentage in the world of Chess Grand Masters per capita – one for every 22,875 residents.

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech start-ups

Israel has the largest raptor migration in the world, with hundreds of thousands of African birds of prey crossing as they fan out into Asia.

Twenty-four percent of Israel’s workforce holds university degrees — ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland — and 12 percent hold advanced degrees.

http://www.newsoftheday.com/

12 06 2007
Anon

Maciekqbn. LOL….I love it when your kind states that they have only encountered 1-2 anti-Semites in Poland. It is cute. Please tell that to the owners of Radio Maryja. Perhaps they will change their programming.

As for the average American vs an average European, America is a very rich land culturally, spiritually, economically, etc. It is wonderful when the people are interested in their own land prior to exploring the far away unimportant countries.

Also, please note, Poland does what the USA wants it to do: http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2007/06/09/poland_backs_us_plan_for_interceptors/

Your fear of the Russians would always make you crawl over to the USA. Poland is a vulnerable state. Face reality!

12 06 2007
Anon

Eye in the Sky, you are correct. Once the murderers are dead who do you blame? Yet, the anti-Semitic element is still present. On quite a few occasions Poland has voted against the Jewish state in the UN. The new Polish excuse is the EU consensus. So, it has to go with the flow. Does it sound familiar? 65 years ago the excuse was Germany, than it became communism and Russia and now it is the EU.

Poland is not an obvious Israeli enemy but given our history the relationship between the Jews and Poles is not easy. 100 years from now it may be different but, rest assured, the Jews will never change their well-documented tragedy in Poland to make the Poles feel better.

12 06 2007
Anon

If you people had been a little more intelligent you would have worried more about the USA or Israel and more about this:

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/know-about-jihad/

12 06 2007
Anon

Correction:

If you people had been a little more intelligent you would have worried less about the USA or Israel and more about this:

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/know-about-jihad/

12 06 2007
Anon

This is the police state site:

http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enPage=HomePage

Please do not view it. You may learn something which can be very dangerous for your soul and nature.

12 06 2007
George

Hello Anon. Thank you for the long list of your kind’s accomplishments. Sounds very similar to what the Nazi-owned newspaper Volkische Beobachter was printing in the 1930s, except then it was:

Germany’s Luftwaffe is the most powerful airforce in the world
Germany’s steel output is the greatest in the world
Germay staged the Olympic Games in 1936

etc. etc.

Does your kind plan to follow the Nazi example and conquer the world?

12 06 2007
12 06 2007
Anon

George, the next time you state your accomplishments or credentials when applying for employment or promotion you will be defined as a Nazi. Cute!

LOL………….Who breeds your venomous, vile, anti-Semitic kind?

So, can you please state the accomplishments produced by the famous university of Krakow, the Polish foundation of culture and higher learning? What are they?

Pretty soon you will thank us, the Americans, for putting the interceptors on your soil.

Believe me, I don’t derive any pleasure in putting Poland down. It is too easy. Poland has a long, very long way to go. Only a simpleton would even compare Poland to the dynamic countries like America or Israel. it is stupid.

Again, the Polish culture/mentality is based on excuses and insecurities. However, when your kind asks for it they get it. Knocking down a sicko or an intellectual midget is no fun.

12 06 2007
peter polak

Well, I’m personally dissapointed because I visited Israel a couple of times, and have never experienced such attitude until I read some israeli’ comments on these forums, thats all.

12 06 2007
tania

This Jewish arrogance is sad…very sad

12 06 2007
thurien

How Many Gold Medals Did Israel Win in the Olympic Games?

answer…1!!!!!!!

Poland 59
Israel 1

There isn’t a fucking country in the world that’s as bad as sports.

12 06 2007
gloria

What are they?

Copernicus, Marie Curie, Chopin, JPII, …

12 06 2007
denn

God!!!Are you crazy????Face reality!

Your fear of the muslims would always make you crawl over to the USA.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Israel is most vulnerable country in World!!!!!!!

12 06 2007
denn

Anyway, the palestinians (and other arabs) arent stupid arrogants like you (anon) and your people…your arrogance is your end.

GoodBless your peaceful nation.

Look this:

A study has ranked Norway as the most peaceful country and Iraq as the least in a survey of 121 countries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/6704767.stm

1 Norway 1.357
2 New Zealand 1.363
3 Denmark 1.377
4 Ireland 1.396
5 Japan 1.413
6 Finland 1.447
7 Sweden 1.478
8 Canada 1.481
9 Portugal 1.481
10 Austria 1.483
11 Belgium 1.498
12 Germany 1.523
13 Czech Republic 1.524
14 Switzerland 1.526
15 Slovenia 1.539
16 Chile 1.568
17 Slovakia 1.571
18 Hungary 1.575
19 Bhutan 1.611
20 Netherlands 1.620
21 Spain 1.633
22 Oman 1.641
23 Hong Kong 1.657
24 Uruguay 1.661
25 Australia 1.664
26 Romania 1.682
27 Poland 1.683

12 06 2007
denn

27 Poland 1.683

12 06 2007
denn

113 Cote d’Ivoire 2.638
114 Lebanon 2.662
115 Pakistan 2.697
116 Colombia 2.770
117 Nigeria 2.898
118 Russia 2.903
119 Israel 3.033

12 06 2007
denn

119 Israel 3.033
120 Sudan 3.182
121 Iraq 3.437

12 06 2007
denn

Israel….welcome to hell !!! My friend

12 06 2007
Anon

Polish Joke – Q: How do you break a Pole’s finger? A: Hit him on the nose.

LOL!

12 06 2007
lovel

How do you fit 6 million jews into a car?
Two in the front, three in the back, and the rest in the ashtray!

LOL!

12 06 2007
Curious Adult

Anonymous, you write so much about what ‘your people’ did, how about boasting about yourself? Sired any bug-eyed bipeds lately? No? I’d wish you Mazel Tov, but you wouldn’t know what to do with it.

12 06 2007
patricia matarazzi

WWII, Holocaust, I dont knew that they(jews) could are so arrogant.

12 06 2007
patricia matarazzi

WWII, Holocaust, I dont knew that they(jews) could be so arrogant.

12 06 2007
sony anderosn

Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today’s population, that is more than $5,700 per person.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

12 06 2007
polishpress

lovel, Anon’s joke was just plain stupid, but making fun of mass-murder? That’s way over the top!! and you know it

and please, everyone, stay on topic

12 06 2007
carla perez vivaz

Poland produced more famous persons than majority of the european countries…but why polish people arent arrogant

12 06 2007
lovel

ok polis jokes aren’t racists…but jewish jokes are……….I loved your logic.

Why do Jews have such big noses?
Because air is free.

How do you stop a Jewish girl from fucking you?
Marry her

12 06 2007
Anon

Polishpress, did you learn something from it? I don’t think so! When you criticize the Jews for whatever reason you open up the gates to the anti-Semitic trash and all kinds of viruses. So, one has to be real careful.

If you want to see the ugliness of the worst kind coming to the surface always start with the Jews. If you don’t find it, please rest assured it will find you. The anti-Semitic ugliness wether it is Polish or German is preying on your kind to justify their hate.

Yet, there are benefits to it. The recent boycott of the British educators against the Israeli institutions is motivating the British Jews to immigrate to Israel. The French anti-Semitic action 2 years ago boosted the economies of Eilat, Ashdod and some other Israeli cities. The French Jews made it happen. Again, the remnants of the Polish Jewry helped to turn the Israeli desert and swamps into one of the most dynamic economies. The University of California at Berkeley was not much of anything untill the Jewish WW2 refugees turned it into one of the leading institutions in the USA.

So much for your Krakow!

12 06 2007
max

OMG dude don’t start, please. Why jews like you are arrogants? Whats problem?

12 06 2007
Curious Adult

One has to be real careful? I don’t think so! I have a right to criticize the Jews, especially “your kind” types. Do you think you’re going to use the Holocaust as an excuse for everything you perpetrate for the next one thousand years? No way!

12 06 2007
max

The your air of superiority is pathetic..please

12 06 2007
max

anonymus

The your air of superiority is pathetic..please….nobody likes arrogant people

12 06 2007
FallOut

Pity that this article draw mostly racist of all kinds (anti-polish and anti-jewish).
Although I have a question to all people wasting time discussing with this jewish neo-nazi john/anon. Why do you do it? If a german would make such anti-polish statements as he does here, would you bother to discuss him or just discard him as nazi lunatic? Or, do you think, if someone have come to some jewish portal with the only aim of making anti-semitic tyrades, would people discuss with him, or just ignore?

So please stop feeding this troll john/anon. Just note a curiosity – a jewish national socialist. and then get over it.

12 06 2007
FallOut

It’s Pity that this article draw mostly racist of all kinds (anti-polish and anti-jewish).
Although I have a question to all people wasting time discussing with this jewish neo-nazi john/anon. Why do you do it? If a german would make such anti-polish statements as he does here, would you bother to discuss him or just discard him as nazi lunatic? Or, do you think, if someone have come to some jewish portal with the only aim of making anti-semitic tyrades, would people discuss with him, or just ignore?

So please stop feeding this troll john/anon. Just note a curiosity – a jewish national socialist. and then get over it.

12 06 2007
Darren

Nazism WAS Zionism.

12 06 2007
dexxx

anon

Stop ignoring all that pharms spam, you ignorant arrogant nationalists!!!

12 06 2007
whi

This is indeed an embarrassing problem. Unfortunately, I don’t think much can be done about it, except to encourage these trips to be more open to locals and to the previous 800+ year history of Polish Jews. The effects are obvious, that these kids usually return with emotional scarring, frustration, anger, etc. It almost appears as if the purpose of these trips is not so much education, but a reinforcement of a feeling of victimhood in the newer generations. As for the Israeli bodyguards — if this is the way they have been behaving, Poland should just act like it has a spine and simply refuse to let them in. Allowing foreigners to unofficially carry around weapons, close public streets, and search and arrest people for seemingly no reason is a limitation of Poland’s soveriengty. It simply should not be allowed.

12 06 2007
kama

If they don’t feel safe in Poland then they should stay at home. Imagine being a Palestinian and having to deal with this every day. No wonder after a while you want your revenge.

12 06 2007
blazej

Kama, it is true that these are the same bodyguards (shin bet), but this is not quite the same situation. Palestinians do kill Israelis daily, and do want to wipe their country out of the face of the Earth. Security measures are natural thing there, if Israelis want to stay alive.
In Poland it’s completely unnecessary and sends a bad signal. Read what Yossi Avni says

“Before, I used to be prejudiced like other Israelis. I remember myself ten years ago, talking to my friends in Berlin ‘There are several countries around the world I would never like to be in, for example Poland’. You will ask ‘why?’. Because I thought Poland doesn’t like me. Now I know my views were stupid and unjust. I mean the anti-Semitism, of course, which I have never encountered here. Let’s don’t be naive, Poland has a very unflattering image among Jews in Israel, and outside Israel.
however during the almost three years I have spent here, I have met many people, I saw that for example in a cafe, when I say I’m an Israeli, people say ‘OK, cool’.

What did you expect to happen?

I thought that they would beat me up, spit on me, that I would have to hide my Israelisness, my Jewishness, to mind what I say – but no. With Poles you only can’t talk about the number of victims, you can’t make comparisons, because their faces instantly cloud over, they take offence, they have to be the world champions in suffering.

How is it in other places?

When in the Western Europe I said I was from Israel, people were scowling, because they are pro-Palestinian. I even felt hostility. My friends-diplomats for instance in UK, Ireland, Sweden, Greece, Belgium, France, tell me about terrible ordeal they have with local youth. In Cologne, Brussels people were interrupting me during my lectures. Here – never. Palestinians are not sexy in Poland.
In Poland Israelis are much more liked, than there. I feel that Poland is hugging me, and I do want to be loved. Poland turned out to be a huge surprise.”

13 06 2007
Anon

It is funny when the anti-Semitic kind comes in here and tells everybody to ignore the truth and reality. It that the Polish way? Yeah keep defining the reality as “racism” and find excuses. Yeah, blame the messenger for telling you the truth. If only life has immitated a fairy tale it would have been easy for your kind. Just like the communist Poland in the mind of some Poles was not Poland the Polish entity in 1939 was in fact Nigeria.

…but why should anyone be surprised? You believe in a fairy tale. The only problem you blame the Jews for all your fantasies.

whi, the Israelis are not going to be the victims. That is what bothers your kind the most. You have lost the privileges of your grandparents who could easily hurt the Jews with impunity. I know it hurts but you will just have to learn to live with it.

13 06 2007
Omar

I think us Poles should start trashing Israeli hotels & planes….
What Israeli airlines do you recommend I fly on?
How many bags of fruit you reckon I can fit on my carry on?

13 06 2007
Dieter

The article failed to mention the incident near Auschwitz last year between Israeli bodyguards and two Polish road workers: A tourist bus loaded with Israeli youth got a flat tire. Two other buses stopped to help them. The Polish road workers watched as the Israelis struggled unsuccessfully to change to a spare wheel. The two of them then went up to ask if they might be of help, whereupon a couple of Israeli bodyguards pushed and jostled them. The Poles pushed back and soon a fight was underway, with four more bodyguards joining the fray. It was over quickly with SIX Israeli bodyguards bleeding, whining and trying to make calls on their cell phones. Not one of the eighty-or-so Israeli youth was brave enough to help their “bodyguards.” Who knows, this may have been a potent of what was to happen to the vaunted IDF in their ill-fated scrape with the tiny, ill-equipped and out-numbered Hezbollah defense forces.

13 06 2007
Anon

I still waiting to hear the spectacular innovations which Poland is so proud of.
Yeah…yeah…Auschwitz…and what else?

13 06 2007
Bela Beria

All the woe-is-me b.s. from Jews. Beria, Tito, Kun, Kaganovich the list of Jews who ran E. Europe and murdered tens of millions of people in those lands for no other reasons than those people were not Jewish is long and tragic. These Jews from Israel are merely acting out what most Jews feel toward non-Jews. Hate. It’s the basis for their group behavior. Hatred of all non-Jews. These Israelis are taught like all Jews that they are God’s gift to the world and that the goyim are animals in human form, here for the amusement of the Jew, here to server the Jew. The Israelis don’t hide their feelings because they have been raised in a country where they are the overwhelming majority, so they are quite open with what is typical Jewish hatred of “gentiles”. When called on their repulsive behavior, they revert to falling on the holocaust. When are they going to acknowledge the holocaust they wreaked in Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe? Never. Because they feel they are never wrong. The Jews truly are the most self-deceptive and self-delusional, most hypocritical, most ethnocentric and most virulently racist group to ever walk the planet. Bar none.

13 06 2007
Maciekqbn

To Anon:
Read something about Zygalski, Rejewski and Różycki.
Besides, find out what RPN (Reverse Polish Notation) means … I hpe this will show you what Poles are good in. This is only a short example, easy to understand for everyone.

13 06 2007
Maciekqbn

Here is an article about Rejewski and what was his work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski

13 06 2007
George

Well diagnosed, Bela. Anon is a prime example.

13 06 2007
blazej

Anon, can you please define to what facts are you referring to in your comment as truth and reality? I got confused.

About Poland being Poland. I think you wanted to make your argument about communist Poland, which some people said, is regarded by many Poles as not really Poland. You should say then 1945. When 1939 is concerned your argument wouldn’t make any sense, as at that time Poland did not exist, it was occupied, and occupiers did not keep any Polish institutions, unlike in occupied Western Europe, and some other countries.

One has to agree however, that although there were no official institutions operating in the open, there was the “secret/underground state” with its secret institutions (for education, resistance, etc.). These represented a varied spectrum of attitudes to Jewish tragedy, most were concentrated simply on resisting the Germans, some expressed their indifference to extermination of Jews, some were helping them as their capacity allowed, and some some resistance cells, for instance, were executing underground courts’ death sentences on those, who reported Jews to the Germans (these people were called “szmalcownicy”).
And obviously, Poland did not exist, but Poles did. And their attitudes also varied, with great majority facing persecution, executions, poverty, food rationing, simply tried to survive. Some found themselves in concentration camps alongside the Jews. Some, who had a German as grandparent or grandgrandparent were forced to sign Volksliste, and were sent as “German privates” to the front. Some were sent to Germany to perform slave labour for the race of the masters. I think every single person could have a different story to tell. In some communities, the war streghtened tensions between neighbours. Someone who could just have had an argument with their Jewish neighbour about a fence, had a possibility for a terrible revenge, and money if they reported them. Unfortunately there were instances of this kind. In the lands occupied by the Soviets, it could be the other way around, and Jews could report Soviets of local anticommunists. They could even be verbally anti-Semitic and hostile to the Jews, some might have been Polish nationalists. These Poles were then sent to Siberia to gulags. Such instances enraged local Polish community, and increased tensions. News were spreading, and for some it was easy to generalise and use collective responsibility. People started telling those ridiculous stories about Jews killing babies and making “maca” bread of their blood… some peasants believed that, and hate spreaded. Small arguments could become huge arguments, and huge arguments turned to death and despair. The hate cumulated itself in after-war pogroms.

A world died in Auschwitz, and during the Second World War. This world is gone, and will never return. With it died the languages people spoke, communities people lived in, common culture they have created, cities they have lived in. Here Yiddish and Polish, German, Platduutch (my granny’s native), Kashubian, Ukrainian were mixing in the streets of Warsaw and on shop displays. This world is gone, this Warsaw is gone. We can only sit and cry, but we have to live on.

And this is a very false statement, Anon, which you make, that “what bothers your kind (“my kind” too I guess?) the most – you have lost the privileges of your grandparents who could easily hurt the Jews with impunity. I know it hurts but you will just have to learn to live with it.”

Jews in Poland were not some passive mannequins. They were living people with the capacity to hurt and be hurt like everyone else. There were many Jewish institutions, political parties, it was a thriving community being one tenth of the total populations. Jews were majority in some towns and areas. They weren’t passive nor helpless. They led normal lives.

You are prone to be hurt only when you are different in some group and you are alone, for whatever reason: you wear glasses in kindergarten, you’re fat, you’re of different ethnicity, religious denomination, skin colour, sexual preference, you’re poor or rich…. People still can hurt each other with impunity. You could be also reffering in those words to the Jewish state. Either way, it’s always a positive when some people are being protected from being hurt by others. And I don’t think anyone wishes for that.
Gandhi said “Eye for an eye will make the world blind”.

Speaking of the spectacular innovations, there are some. Not too much, as this country’s input to universal culture is appropriate to its size and science funding. And we’re not speaking about past achievements nor art, literature or social sciences, but about high-tech etc. I’m not really interested in this kind of stuff, and my knowledge in this area is very very limited, there are some things that come to my mind. Polish scientists created the blue laser for commercial use (the blu ray or whatever it is called), Physicists from Torun invented some very advanced medical-optical-laser device for – either diagnosis or treatment (can’t remember), astronomer Aleksander Wolszczan was the first to discover planets from outside our solar systemhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksander_Wolszczan These are three examples that come to my mind, from my university.

13 06 2007
blazej

Dieter, can you name sources?

As to hizbollah, you know that Israel has other enemies as well and countless twats who carry bombs on their own body. Comparison with security situation of Israel lame. As you know they have won most of their campaigns. Their soldiers are ordinary people, and yet they are very brave.

13 06 2007
blazej

Bela Beria, you’re partly barking the wrong tree. Never heard of Beria or Tito being Jewish. Beria was born in Abkhazia, Tito was a son of Croat and Slovene. You’re right about Kaganovich, who was responsible for the famine in Ukraine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor Don’t know who Kun was, can you elaborate?

“The Jews truly are the most self-deceptive and self-delusional, most hypocritical, most ethnocentric and most virulently racist group to ever walk the planet. Bar none.”
—> and that was not racist, right? self-deceptive? self-delusional?

13 06 2007
Bill

Anon, the most spectacular contribution coming from Poland is the Heliocentric Theory of the Solar System by Nicolaus Copernicus. In a nutshell, it states that the Jews revolve around the Sun. Previously it was thought that the world revolves around the Jews.

13 06 2007
copyboy

this is a comment is copied from Naqniq http://naqniq.wordpress.com/2007/06/12/more-israeli-assholery-news/
posted by kei & yuri of http://reallyquitecleanpair.blogspot.com/

We had a friend who visits Europe often and has lots of Jewish friends. She used to speak openly about some of their craziness but we were too honest and she will no longer speak to us. One of the things she mentioned, after an unprovoked tirade about how worthless, stupid, inbred, inept, comical and bad all Polacks are, was that on a Holotour there was one town “so bad they wouldn’t let people off the bus.” The facts were right there in front of us but we said nothing. Of course they didn’t let them off the bus: if you got off the bus and failed after an hour, a day, a vacation, to find the slightest evidence that “they were so bad,” — what then? Hell, you might begin to question whether you really had been set aside by the creator of the universe as superior.

Thoughts on the article:
-It is such a strong proof of the fallacy of the Israeli fears that Chasidim, who have a distinctive costume, are fine, but Israeli youth, who are not necessarily instantly distinguishable, must be protected like gold bars.
-After an article about how Israelis think they’re better (and of course they do, and who wouldn’t after a six-day war with multiple opponents anyway?!)
a Jew just has to claim that Israelis don’t see themselves as better. In 6,000 years they cannot say the word “enough,” there is no sense that something might be going too far. And that’s the good guy! Earlier a woman claims that well, yes the Israelis insist on being separate, but that wouldn’t generate animosity because they’re so busy enjoying their superiority.
-The young Jews we knew and befriended could easily be just like this, and most of those on TV are. “Borat” was essentially about this kind of behavior, and is by no means unique.

One final note: Fooling around in a big used bookstore we accidentally came across a pamphlet from the 1950s about how Jews in Poland were misbehaving, fleeing to Israel and justifying their crimes by claiming that all Poles were nothing but latter-day Nazis. The pamphlet goes on to speak about the history of Jews in Poland, which is very instructive and which we might do a piece on in the future. John Ross’s invaluable Myths of Zionism summarizes this beautifully in a part about how important it is to Zionists to always be murderously hated by everybody.

13 06 2007
Christopher

When I visited the Holocaust Museum in Washington, there were teenagers frolicking there. Perhaps the phenomenon of ‘holo-hooligans’ is an international one.

13 06 2007
luca

the holocaust is a lie, it’s just propaganda.
and because it is propaganda it needs to be sustained by an inquisition-like jurisdiction and special laws.
the holocaust is just a lie

13 06 2007
Anon

Those who disseminate hate on the internet would be well served if they read the following:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1592

They can hide behind the screens but they will not be able to run. Their IP addresses are registered by the American authorities and their actions are monitored. America and Israel know how to protect their interests.

13 06 2007
blaz

mind you Anon,

they are after you!
;)

13 06 2007
13 06 2007
Anon

Blaz, America will root them out or at least monitor their actions limiting their career opportunities. You never know when you need the US government’s assistance. Imagine you are in a car accident and paralized. The private industry would NOT hire you but the government would provided your record is squeaky clean.

One easy check and your IP is registered by the FBI. You are sorry now but………..

Also, do you think the Israelis are sitting idly by? Don’t you think they know who who the anti-Jewish haters are?

http://www.spacetoday.net/Summary/3798

Good luck! They need it!

13 06 2007
George

Anon, are you suggesting America and Israel will kill those who post on this page?

13 06 2007
blazej

Anon, I really don’t follow you on this one. What is your point then?

You want to threaten people so that they don’t say what they think? Totally the wrong way. Persuade people to your views, give arguments

Those atrocities you give links to were mentioned here many times in this debate. I would really like to see you refer to what other people have been saying by presenting your counterarguments. Should for instance Jews apologise for millions of deaths caused by Kazanovich policy in Ukraine, as someone before asked? What about copyboys arguements?

btw. I think governments really have better things to do, than to read internet fora. catching real criminals for instance. and if any hate crime is being committed here verbally, you are one of the perpetrators-so you’d have found yourself on that govt list

13 06 2007
Christopher

“America and Israel know how to protect their interests.”

If America knew how to look after its interests, it would not be involved in the disastrous occupation of Iraq, nor would it be heading for an armed clash with Iran.

13 06 2007
Anon

blazej, there is a line between freedom of speech and denying the Holocaust. It is illegal in many countries and falls under the hate crime legislation in the USA. The jail time for any hateful act is very severe. There is no protection for the haters under the freedom of speech act. In addition, every message on any blog or forum in the world is registered and IPs are easily identified.

The information is stored and used when needed.

The media warfare has been going on for a long time. I don’t need to threaten anyone and in fact doing a favor to those who think they are unknown, immune and anonymous. They are not!

http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/oct2005/pi20051026_7227_pi008.htm

As for posting some interesting websites about the Polish massacres against the Jews, it does not hurt to remind the haters again, again and again what happened to the Jews of Poland.

13 06 2007
Maciekqbn

Holocaust is NOT a lie! Just visit Europe to see it on your own eyes. The lie is what some Jews say – that holocaust was because of Poles. This lie is being spread by for eg. Anon.

During WWII (1939-1945) Poland was occupied by German Nazi and there was NO State of Poland. If you disagree how would you explain that on Polish soil almost the same number of Poles and Jews was murdered?

And one thing that should be remembered:
Occupied Poland was the only place in Europe with death penalty for ANY form of help for Jews. But as you know a majority of the Righteous Gentiles honored at Yad Vashem are Poles.

Jews like Anon bring dishonor for all his nation. Shame on you Anon!

13 06 2007
14 06 2007
blazej

Then those who spread lies about Poles being perpetrators of Holocaust should face the same penalty. This is also a hate crime. Nevertheless it’s still maliciously repeated. And next generations start to actually believe it.

Is this a revenge for Kielce and 1968? Or is it because Germany, Swiss banks, Austria paid a lot of money? Who wants to plant this lie in people’s minds?

And Anon, you still did not refer to any counterarguments. Thesis that Holocaust is a lie is not worth discussing as obvious rubbish. But why don’t you refer to what other people have been saying?

14 06 2007
James

I’m wondering how much money “Anon” is being payed by the Zionists to monitor this discussion.

14 06 2007
marck

Anon…are you crazy?

God…. the majority of the Righteous Gentiles honored at Yad Vashem are Poles.

14 06 2007
marck

Get a Life, man!

14 06 2007
George

Anonymous hijacked this discussion and made you all focus on the events of over 60 years ago, while the unacceptable behavior of teenagers is the topic.
It should be illegal for foreign bodyguards to walk armed on Polish streets. Those who damage property should pay fines. The Poles should pass appropriate laws and make sure they are enforced.

14 06 2007
Christopher

Why do Israelis describe their security barrier as a ‘fence’ and not as a wall? They do not refer to the ‘Wailing Fence’, the ‘Berlin Fence’ or the ‘Great Fence of China”.

14 06 2007
Zenon

RE: very FIRST idiotic post.

I stopped right there, not even reading rest of this. Dude, DUDE, again, DUEEEEEDEEEEE, read some f*** history.

When finished that, you would learn that Jews were NOT round up by Poles, and that JEDWABNE most likely happened by the action of German policemen (and of course that was 1942 less than ONE year when Jewish population of THAT VERY AREA (Poland’s eastern areans) betrayed Poles and joined Soviet, invader’s army in killing spree of Polish people.

14 06 2007
davrol

Maybe these Jewish kids are victims of their upbringing. If they have been taught from an early age to regard Palestinians as contemptible sub-humans, it may be natural for hem to regard all non-Jews in the same light.

14 06 2007
Tramwaj

It could be that a few bad seeds are giving a bad name to the whole lot. If out of twenty hotel rooms three are demolished, the whole group gets the blame. How does one deal with the bad seeds, though?

14 06 2007
davrol

The problem is not just one of a few bad apples among the teenagers. It is not even confined to the teenagers. The Israeli goons who act as security guards are obviously thugs whose actions would get them slung into prison in many countries. What kind of example do they set to their charges?

14 06 2007
Doltbuster

Anonymous, where are you when we need you? Forget to Hamas/Fatah stuff, get back to the forum!

15 06 2007
Zenon

Couple of quotes to those very nice gentlemen who blame Poland for Holocaust and for killing Jews. If you don’t believe Poles who say that they were not responsible for any of the above, then read words of your fellow Jews:

“- Does the fact that the “Final Solution” took place in the East say anything about the nations of Eastern Europe? – No, it has to do with the concentration of Jews. Had there been a larger concentration of Jews in the Balkans, the extermination would have taken place there. Since most of the Jews were in Poland and Russia, the main killing centers were in those areas.”
– David Bankier, Hebrew University of Jerusalem

——————————–

“The camps were located in German-occupied Poland, the European country with by far the largest Jewish population, but they were most emphatically not “Polish camps”.

This is not a mere semantic matter. Historical integrity and accuracy hang in the balance.

Poland was the first nation attacked by the Third Reich, which ignited the Second World War on September 1, 1939. Polish forces fought valiantly, but were overwhelmed by the larger and better equipped Nazi army that invaded from the west, and then by the Soviet army, an ally of Hitler at the time, which attacked from the east. Nonetheless, Polish forces in exile continued the struggle against Hitler, together, of course, with other Allied troops, until the war’s end. And it should also never be forgotten that, in addition to Polish Jews, who were targeted for total annihilation by the Nazi Final Solution, other Poles, including political prisoners such as Professor Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, who spoke so movingly at Auschwitz on January 27, and who was a key figure in the Polish underground, were also seized by the Nazis and incarcerated in concentration camps.

Any misrepresentation of Poland’s role in the Second World War, whether intentional or accidental, would be most regrettable and therefore should not be left unchallenged.”

January 30, 2005 – New York – American Jewish Committee Executive Director David A. Harris

15 06 2007
Greg

“Have the Jews ever murdered the Poles the way the Poles murdered the Jews? ” by Anonymous (08:25:19)

Yes. They have. They were monsters.
When Soviets invaded Poland, Jews welcomed them with flowers, kissing Soviet invading tanks. Then, they started hunting for Poles (because they were BEING Poles): killing them and/or helping Soviets to create deportation lists (once on a list, one and his family was sent to Syberia.

Jews betrayed Poland then (not for the first time, either) and collaborated with Soviet occupant.

Read about Jewish Red Militia. Read about Judeopolonia.
You’ll learn something new.

15 06 2007
Maciekqbn

Maybe Anon was captured by the Police for his racist texts?

15 06 2007
Doltbuster

Zenon, what have you done? You drove Anonymous out of the forum… The truth doesn’t have to be told so bluntly, he was such a sensitive creature… I miss his condescending ‘your kind’ tirades, his contempt, his obvious ignorance of history. Woe unto us!

15 06 2007
Greg

To Anon (00:50:18)

“Yeah. polishpress the victims of Jedwabne need to understand the polish murderers and figure out what motivated them to commit murders against the Jews.”

Yeah huh, tell it to those Poles who lost their lives and/or families, because Jewish TRAITORS BETRAYED Poland and Poles in eastern Poland (1939).

Now, read my previous post (if published: Greg (06:12:44)) Check, on the map, find where Jedwabne is: you’ll get the point – Jews’ killing spree (of Poles)

Oh…
I have just realized you will NOT get a point, judging from your previous posts. You, yourself said that Jews’d never EVER been a part of Poland.

True.

You betrayed us.
Couple of times.

Q: because you felt so ‘not’ connected, right?
You tried to create your own country on stolen Polish sole, weren’t you? (kinda stolen, Poland did not exist then).

And these f** who killed Jews were mere criminals, who most, more than or less, were likely killed by Polish Underground.

How many of Jewish traitors (toward Poland) were punished by Jews?
None.

Most of those traitors played a role in Jewish government(s).
Just loose thoughts…

15 06 2007
Anon

Polishpress, if my posts are deleted there is no need for me to post here. The last one was deleted.

Let me repeat it again.

James, Zionism has outlived communism, fascism, the Polish pogroms and nationalism and it will outlive not only your vicious anti-Semitic kind but also terrorism regardless where it comes from: Timothy McVeigh, Yassir Arafat or Osama Bin Ladin.

As to how much money the ZIonists are paying me to monitor this site, I am making a tonn. They pay me a lot of bucks to turn your hateful kind in to the FBI or Homeland Security. Would not you love it here? http://inphotos.org/index.php?tag=prison

blazej, there is nothing more to cover. Keep finding more excuses that absolve Poland from any kind of responsibility either during the Holocaust or communism. Please keep in mind, the Jebwabne massacre did not happen in a vacuum. It is hard to imagine that the people who murdered the Jews could carry so much hate.

15 06 2007
greek

What can one expect from an overly militarized population geared to do nothing more than fight, oppress and occupy?

I mean, this is the country which floods the internet with pictures of teenage girls in the military en masse.

What do you think they’re gonna act like abroad? As for Poland, if they have the nuts to send soldiers to fight in Iraq, thye can tell the Israelis to respect the laws of the land or stay out.

15 06 2007
greek

“They pay me a lot of bucks to turn your hateful kind in to the FBI or Homeland Security. Would not you love it here? http://inphotos.org/index.php?tag=prison

I Fear You

Anon, you are a clown hahahhhahahaahahhahaha

my last post was deleted. Why?

15 06 2007
Tramwaj

Anonymous, the way you shake that FBI/Homeland security stick is just hilarious. Love & kisses ;-)

15 06 2007
Victim of Allied Imperialism

My family comes from the area that was made the corridor by the Allies after WW I. We were the original autochtone population there; we can trace back our roots as far back as church books allow, ie. 1620. We have a unique family name that is typical for the region. And yes, we have slawic roots and yet we were expelled and are still delegitimized by Poland and EU.

Both Jews and Poles and are big liars regarding true factual history. They were war winners and still pretend being victims as a nation. Think about Ukrainians, Hungarians etc. who are not accounted for by official history and how they suffered. Now who has benefited? Ask yourself cui bono? Poland has extended its territorial possession if we take in account that they had to return territory to Russia which was to largest extent a colony inhabited by other etnic groups. They lost territory with population of 2 mill. and got territory with population of 15 mill. from which they expelled most and killed millions. Btw. they killed more Germans than actually Poles were killed under German occupation.

What about Palestinians? Jews got their will and stole their land. But they are victims and Palestinians are terrorists.

Just one question: How can there be ancestors of holocau$t survivors visiting in any significant number if according to official history all Jews in Poland were killed except of 10.000. Why is it that Poland has no demographic decline through WW II ?

15 06 2007
davrol

We should face the sombre truth that all peoples are capable of massacres, ehtnic cleansing, and other atrocities. Europeans against the Jews and non-Europeans, non-Europeans against other non-Europeans, the Israelis against the Palestinians in 1948.

15 06 2007
Greg

Anon,

talking to you is like talking to a wall.
Jebwabne massacre happened less than a year after Jews in that region gladly joined Soviets and took part in killing Poles.

I am not trying to justify the murder. Murder is a murder and should be condemned by all means. You have to understand, though, the it happened NOT because Poles were evil and hated Jews so much (with is nothing but bunch of crap).

As for you BS about Poles being responsible for holocaust, read this:

“The camps were located in German-occupied Poland, the European country with by far the largest Jewish population, but they were most emphatically not “Polish camps”.

This is not a mere semantic matter. Historical integrity and accuracy hang in the balance.

Poland was the first nation attacked by the Third Reich, which ignited the Second World War on September 1, 1939. Polish forces fought valiantly, but were overwhelmed by the larger and better equipped Nazi army that invaded from the west, and then by the Soviet army, an ally of Hitler at the time, which attacked from the east. Nonetheless, Polish forces in exile continued the struggle against Hitler, together, of course, with other Allied troops, until the war’s end. And it should also never be forgotten that, in addition to Polish Jews, who were targeted for total annihilation by the Nazi Final Solution, other Poles, including political prisoners such as Professor Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, who spoke so movingly at Auschwitz on January 27, and who was a key figure in the Polish underground, were also seized by the Nazis and incarcerated in concentration camps.

Any misrepresentation of Poland’s role in the Second World War, whether intentional or accidental, would be most regrettable and therefore should not be left unchallenged.”

January 30, 2005 – New York – American Jewish Committee Executive Director David A. Harris

15 06 2007
Steve

Is this the same Poland where the horse cavalry charged the Nazi tanks; unarmed Solidarity members stood up to the Communists; and the Poles beat up and threw water on the Jews protesting the Carmelite convent at Auschwitz? It sounds like Poland is trying to get financial aid by looking as a victim of these Israeli teenage tourists.

15 06 2007
Doltbuster

Steve, we’re just trying to stop criminal behavior before someone gets hurt. The armed goons have no business hustling bystanders on our streets.

15 06 2007
blazej

—> to: “victim of allied imperialism”

Oh my efffing god, I haven’t heard such a load of bullshit in a long time!
Everything you write is crap. And your numbers and comparisons are a work of your imagination!!!!
I should start looking up sources and pointing to all your misinformation – it’s a pity I don;t have time for it. I hope someone else reading this forum will respond properly. I’m just posting couple links hoping that you’ll read and learn something new.

Just to remind: expulsions were decided between Stalin, Churchill and Truman during their Potsdam Conference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Conference
General article on expulsions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

No wonder there was massive anti-German resentment, don’t you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_%281939-1945%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_operations_in_German-occupied_Poland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment_of_the_Polish_citizens_by_the_occupants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_ethnic_Poles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au%C3%9Ferordentliche_Befriedungsaktion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf
Moreover, it were the Germans who first used expulsions, to cleanse North and West Poland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany

And a quote “There was an expressed fear of disloyalty of Germans in Silesia and Pommerania based in part on the pro-Nazi activities of members of the German ethnic group during the war and even after the end of the war.”

Therefore you should understand, that there was an unimaginable resentment towards the Germans after the war. After what they have done during the war they have started, they should be happy they could still live in Germany. If you didn’t know Americans had plans of resettling Germans to Africa somewhere – which were later dropped – but were taken into account.

Germans won this war more than Poles, who after 6 years of German occupation, found themselves in Soviet occupation for 60.

Germans never returned the things they have stolen during their occupation: the works of art, the masterpieces, the private collections their generals took back to Reich with them.

15 06 2007
blazej

Steve,

Do you know anything about wars? Do you think there were tanks and nothing more? There was infantry and cavalry always behind them! That’s what Polish cavalry was for.

Poland had some tanks too btw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland_%281939%29

15 06 2007
blazej

to ” Victim of Allied Imperialism”,

JUST ONE example of your idiotic lies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

You can compare on graph the losses of Axis and Allies. You can also see that Polans had had the biggest loss of population from all the countries involved! Over 18%

16 06 2007
Maciekqbn

I think that “Victim of Allied Imperialism” is the same person as “Anon”. The same bullshit and disinformation. But one thing seems to be stronger visible in all those (Anon/Victim of Allied Imperialism) texts – Hate to Poles and anti-Polish propaganda.

It is not wort to answer this crap. If someone wants to know the truth then the history is an answer.

Btw. I have never ever heard such a bullshit like “Victim of Allied Imperialism” wrote. This man is crazy.

16 06 2007
16 06 2007
Anon

Welcome to the peaceful Palestinian Arab territory of Gaza:

16 06 2007
Anon

Where is Ratchel Corrie and ISM creatures when you need them?

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25868&only&rss

16 06 2007
16 06 2007
danny

Why is everyone complaining about Poland, I thought the Poles gave protection to Jews. That wanted to go to Israel after the collapse of the communist government. And for the Israeli teenagers being bad, that can be sad about any group of misbehaved teens. I’ve seen french teens do terrible things in London, and I’m sure its vice versa. Its just stupid kids being annoying thats all.

16 06 2007
Jacek Michal

Could anyone provide evidence for accusations of spreading antisemitism and hate by “Radio Maryja “?

16 06 2007
Victim of Allied Imperialism

The logic of Poles and zionists, although much more to zionists, is that they suffered so much that their unjustice is justified. For unjustice that had been recognised and that does not go on anymore, they justify and still continue other unjustice.

The truth is that WW II was not different than other wars in terms of suffering to civilians, the true number of Polish losses in WWII is around 500.000. Show me any academic sound compilation of the 2 mill. Polish losses and 3 mill. Jews.

About the wikipedia table, it is simply plain wrong and reflects communist and zionist propaganda of the soviet time. Since Gorbachev it is officially admitted that soviet military losses were 11 mill., other critical sources have it around 5 mill. Wikipedia is notorious for its pro zionist and US distorted view on political issues. They publish plain lies like that Lebanese militants trespassed into Israeli territory and kidnapped soldiers while the truth is that Israeli soldiers went into Lebanese territory.

The foot note about Poland says:

The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum has reported that historians in Poland now believe that Polish civilian war losses were about 1.9 million ethnic Poles and 3 million Polish Jews.

Look at the word “believe”, why don’t they know it?? Where is the thorough investiagtion that can be proved. How can the holocuast museum in USA know about things they don’t allow to investigate. The 3 mill. number is a guess based on false statistics, there is a Wizenthal initiated agreement between Poles and Jews to exaggerate both losses and have Jews on top. Why is it that the US holocaust museum has the saying and not neutral historians complying with academic standards.

Here is just one compilation of the German view http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm. Files that document the British and Polish politics regarding Danzig are still classified by Britain. Why?

The war declaration to Poland came as a result of Polish provocations and the unwillingness to negotiate peace for a disputed situation after WW I, in particular regarding Danzig. There is a lot that is suppressed in official history, most people know only one side of the medal such as FOX TV viewers in USA know about Middle East.

At any time the allies could have negotiated peace, there were endless overtures by Germany. However they did not want at the beginning of the war what led to war with France and Britain that btw was declared by France and Britain to Germany and not the other way around. Later when the Allies were about to win the war, their only interest was in the destruction of Germany, land robbery and hegemony and not in any ethical or just solution for Europe. If Polish or Jewish exil groups had wanted the western allies to stop the war by way of negotiations with Germany, at any time a negotiated peace would have come into existence. They even could have Hitler putsched away by opposing groups, they never even tried but eagerly acted against such developments. They did not want it because they had territorial ambitions and that’s why there is war now and then.

16 06 2007
polishpress

Jacek Michal,

This will help you for starters. You can find lots of interesting links there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Maryja

17 06 2007
Anon

Danny, this is how the Jews were protected in Poland : http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/magazine/data5/jedwabne.html

…….please keep in mind, people do not leave their country of birth with great joy. If the Jews wanted to leave it is only because of fear, strident Polish anti-Semitism and intolerable conditions.

The French, Armenian, English, Italian, Chinese teenages regardless how they behave do not arouse the emotions the Jewish teenages do. It may sound nutty to you but whatever the Jews do or don’t do they generate the negative emotional feelings. Had the teenages been from France nobody would even think to make an issue of it. For that very reason the 3rd biggest international press/tv contingent is stationed in Israel. The first one is in Washington, DC, the secound is in Moscow, Russia and the 3rd happens to be in Israel, a country of 7M people. China, India or Brazil cannot even come close. The anti-Semitic virus is spread all over Europe: from Spain and England to Ukraine.

http://www.ctu.edu/News_and_Events/News_at_CTU/Christian_Persecution_of_Jews

These days open anti-Semitism is not in vogue so the haters use the word Zionism, Zionist, Israel, Sharon, etc. to keep their hate alive.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/chrono.html

17 06 2007
blazej

to”victim of allied imperialism”
i guess the point is
that what you think is injustice
we think is justice

17 06 2007
17 06 2007
glory

Jedwabne
In 2001 the President of Poland, Aleksander Kwaśniewski, officially apologized on behalf of Poland to the Jewish people for this crime . But this caused a certain criticism, as some considered Jedwabne to be a solely German crime, while others believed that the Polish nation was not to bear responsibility for the crimes performed by some. At that time when Kwaśniewski offered the apology, the IPN investigation was not yet completed.

17 06 2007
silemon

Jedwabne, Jedwabne, Jedwabne, Jedwabne, Jedwabne, Jedwabne, …ok ok ok

3 million jews were killed by germans during the war, but today jews love germans….why?

17 06 2007
silemon

german money, maybe?

17 06 2007
Doltbuster

Victim of Allied Imperialism wrote: “The war declaration to Poland came as a result of Polish provocations (…).” LOL

Are you perhaps unaware that the Gleiwitz provocation was engineered by the Nazi Germans to give them excuse to invade Poland?

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=713
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
http://www.answers.com/topic/gleiwitz-incident

17 06 2007
cuthean

jews are a deranged race cult masquerading as a religion…..every jew a PEARL.

17 06 2007
Doltbuster

Anonymous, you claim to be an American. If so, you should be aware of what is required to be an American by 8 USC section 1448:

A person who has applied for naturalization shall, in order to be
and before being admitted to citizenship, take in a public ceremony
before the Attorney General or a court with jurisdiction under
section 1421(b) of this title an oath (1) to support the
Constitution of the United States; (2) to renounce and abjure
absolutely and entirely all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign
prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which the
applicant was before a subject or citizen; (3) to support and
defend the Constitution and the laws of the United States against
all enemies, foreign and domestic; (4) to bear true faith and
allegiance to the same; and (5)(A) to bear arms on behalf of the
United States when required by the law, or (B) to perform
noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when
required by the law, or (C) to perform work of national importance
under civilian direction when required by the law.

Now take a look at (2): TO RENOUNCE AND ABJURE ABSOLUTELY AND ENTIRELY ALL ALLEGIANCE AND FIDELITY TO ANY FOREIGN PRINCE, POTENTATE, STATE, OR SOVREIGNITY OF WHOM OR WHICH THE APPLICANT WAS BEFORE A SUBJECT OR A CITIZEN.

Now which of the above words don’t you understand? Your allegiance is clearly to Israel, yet you claim to be an American?

17 06 2007
Greg

to Anon (00:34:16)

(again, like talking to a freaking wall)

and Danny, this is how Jews ‘thanked’ Poland for 800 years of hospitality:
http://www.kki.pl/piojar/polemiki/land/land3.html

also how they did react when Soviets invaded Poland:
http://www.geocities.com/jedwabne/english/jedwabne_a_zbrodnie_na_kresach_2.htm
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/jewish-atrocities-against-whites-wwii-374391p2.html

Read more about ‘Jewish Red Militia’. You’ll learn about true face of the Jews toward Poland and Poles (again, as a ‘thank you’ that they could normally live within Polish democratic borders for EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS, while being expelled from EVERY country in Europe).

17 06 2007
Anon

dotbuster 1) I am not an Israeli and has never been one. 2) where did you read that an American cannot support the top US ally, Israel? The pitiful anti-Semitic kind is obviously upset. It is upset because the democratic Jewish state of Israel is supported not only by the US Jews but also by the US Christians:

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/10935.htm

Silemon, who breeds your cancerous kind? What womb spews out such hideousness and filth? Unlike Poland Germany has acknowledged its horrific past. However, despite the Jewish – German reconciliation the relationship will continue to be very difficult for at least another 1000 years.

Danny, I did not know that the Jews in Poland were no more than guests and therefore had no citizenship rights. Thank you for letting the Jews know that they violated the Polish hospitality and were not properly behaving toward their hosts. Only a very sick mind would conclude that the Jews were aliens after 800 years in Poland and deserved this: http://www.remember.org/jacobs/

Hopefully, the Europeans will treat the Arabs nicer that they have treated the Jews.

17 06 2007
Victim of Allied Imperialism

Doltbuster:

The Gleiwitz story is another piece of propaganda that was invented for the Nuremberg trial where it came to be known to the world. There they had as well Katyn blamed to Germany though everyone knew very well it was committed by Russia.

I guess it’s quite simple, if Gleiwitz happened as the allies claim, then show me any newspaper article or any mentioning about it from the time it was supposed to have happened. Or show me where it has been exploited by Germany. Should be quite easy for you if it was such a big event. So just show me that it happened at that time, please.

It has been long since refuted as just another propaganda lie.

17 06 2007
Doltbuster

Victim of Allied Imperialism:

The Gleiwitz provocation was exploited by the entire German Press:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cberfall_auf_den_Sender_Gleiwitz#_ref-4

A passage on above page reads: Am 1. September 1939 erschien in der ganzen deutschen Presse in riesiger Aufmachung die Meldung „Polen überfallen Gleiwitzer Sender“[5].

Translated into English it says: On 1 September 1939, an enormous headline “Poland attacks Gleiwitz Radio Station” appeared in the German press.

Curiously, a German-language newspaper published in the United States,
Staats-Anzeiger, also exploited the incident to justify German aggression in 1939:

http://www.traces.org/derstaatsanzeiger.html

17 06 2007
Doltbuster

Anonymous:

Jonathan Pollard was not an Israeli citizen either. He is now rotting in Jail for betraying the United States. Lets compare two quotes:

Quote 1:

“You think they care, Esther. They don’t give a damn. I’m just a stinking North American zhid,” Mr. Pollard said, using a slur for Jew.

source: http://www.jonathanpollard.org/1998/071698.htm

Quote 2:

“To Poles the zhids will always be arrogant, tricky, exclusive, deceitful or pompous.”

Source: this very page, post by John/anonymous (22:07:57), May 27th 2007

Let me be blunt: are you JONathan Pollard, John/anonymous?

17 06 2007
Anon

The ungrateful Polish Jews! How dare the Jews show their feelings? How dare they make a mess in a hotel. Yeah, tell the Muslim Arabs of the UK, France, Holland, Belgium, Sweden or Germany that they are nothing more than guests.

You will never tell them that! Never! Because you know what happens!

Doltbuster, apparently, this is the only language your ugly kind understands:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm

….and than, you rush to extend your apologies:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/722

What goes around comes around!

17 06 2007
Greg

Anon, do you even read all posts?

Do not spread lies about Poland and Poles during the WWII. I posted the quote by your beloved Israeli twice, which part of this you do not understand?!

“(…) Any misrepresentation of Poland’s role in the Second World War, whether intentional or accidental, would be most regrettable and therefore should not be left unchallenged.”

January 30, 2005 – New York – American Jewish Committee Executive Director David A. Harris

17 06 2007
davrol

anon
“The French, Armenian, English, Italian, Chinese teenagers regardless how they behave do not arouse the emotions the Jewish teenagers do.”
Israel certainly does not have a monopoly of obnoxious teenagers, but what is newsworthy about this story is the behaviour of the armed thugs who accompany the teenagers, and seem to think that they can rough up people with impunity.
” For that very reason the 3rd biggest international press/tv contingent is stationed in Israel.”
The press corps may be based in Israel, but it is probably covering much of the Middle East, which is a bit of a trouble-spot, as you you may have heard.
Besides, the Israeli lobby is proud of the fact that there is so much friendly coverage of Israel in the US media.

17 06 2007
Victim of Allied Imperialism

Doltbuster:

Mysteriously there are always references to sources where the incidence was mentioned, however none of them has ever been reproduced.

About your reference to Der Staats-Anzeiger

There is a picture that only shows the top part of what is apparently the title page of Sep 5 1939.

In the headline listings below under Sep 5 it says as a translation

German Troops march into Poland, says Berlin, because Poland was the aggressor?

The German text as of the picture reads

Deutsche Truppen sind in Polen einmarschiert
Berlin behauptet, dass Polen der Angreifer war

This translates a little bit different and not being written as a question into

German troop have marched into Poland
Berlin states that Poland was the attacker

The translated headline as listed

Poland’s attack on Gleiwitz was the cause of the battles

cannot be found on the picture as depicted at the top. Mysteriously it cuts off just before it would have gotten interesting.

By doing a content analysis a headline “Poland’s attack on Gleiwitz was the cause of the battles”, the term Gleiwitz must have been associated with something that had yet to been explained to the readers.

The formulation was the cause of the battles would translate into German as “war der Grund fuer die Schlachten” is a formulation I doubt would be authentic German writing style.

Wikipedia refers to Albert Norden saying “Am 1. September 1939 erschien in der ganzen deutschen Presse in riesiger Aufmachung die Meldung „Polen überfallen Gleiwitzer Sender“[5].

However it cannot be verified since there is no external link and yet no reference to the assumed newspaper and it assumed reference.

Employees from the Sender Gleiwitz were asked after the war and they could not remember any incidence, yet a shooting in the building left traces. Other top ranking defendents of the Nuremberg trial said that they only heard about it after the war.

Any reference to a contemporary source is still missing. Somewhat strange that there are countless sites dealing with the buzzword Gleiwitz but no documental evidence that should be so easy to provide.

18 06 2007
Zenon

“… During the preparations for the arrival of the Red Army, and immediately after its advent, young Jews in many locations formed semi-military groupings with names like “People’s Militia”, “Workers’ Guard”, and so on. It was the task of these organizations to maintain local security, order, and sound administration. Above all, they were to prevent any disturbances as the Red Army came in. These youngsters often armed themselves with light weapons left behind by the Polish police. In lieu of uniforms, they tied red ribbons to their sleeves. The very fact of armed Jews visibly imposing their order made their fellow Jews even more eager to greet the Soviet forces.”

Israeli historian Dov Levin

18 06 2007
Anon

These are the humanists for you. They tend to run out soon as the situation heats up. Darfur is just another example. How many of them enter Uganda, Somalia or Nigeria?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3414177,00.html

When Israel was in Gaza 100s if not 1000s of so called “activists”, “internationals”, “humanists” flocked to the territory. They loved to criticize Israel and the IDF but Israel was still protecting their lives. These days the “humanists” are gone and the reporters are no longer present. The leftist, anti-Israel BBC was presented with a great gift: the kidnapping of one of its reporters. Gaza is too dangerous for the “humanists”, “internationals” or “activists” and since the Jews left the area it is not of great interest to anyone.

It is amazing how transparent the nasty anti-Semitic creatures are.

18 06 2007
18 06 2007
Doltbuster

Victim of Allied Imperialism:

All right, here is what you really want to see, the headline from Der Oberschlesische Wanderer dated September 1st 1939:
“Uberfall der Gleiwitzer Sender”

http://www.gliwiczanie.pl/Reportaz/radiostacja/radiostacja.htm

I could go on finding these scanned front pages from German newspapers, but what’s the point? Do you think a deception on such massive scale is possible?

18 06 2007
Biff Baxter

Is it possible that Jews have always behaved the same way, before, after and during pogroms? That explains why they have been chased out of every nation on Earth over the past two thousand years. Maybe it’s not the filthy goyim who have the problem. Maybe it’s Jews who are human train wrecks.

Jews collect grievances. It doesn’t matter if there are any real ones or not. They will make some up if none exist and if they have to they will sh*t in a hotel sink in order to make sure somebody hates them for something tangible and easily defined. It’s the filthy goyim’s fault for not putting the toilet closer to the door, you see.

18 06 2007
Christopher

Uri Avnery believes that Israelis have become brutalised since the 1967 war. If he is right, it could explain the thuggish behaviour of the Israeli bodyguards who escort the teenagers.

Here is an excerpt from Avnery’s article (followed by alink to the full article).

“IT CANNOT be denied: 40 years of occupation have changed the State of Israel beyond recognition.

That is obvious in all spheres of life. All of them have been contaminated.

18-year old youngsters, most of who have been brought up by decent parents as moral human beings, are drafted into the army, enter the brutal subculture of their units and receive an indoctrination that justifies every act of brutality against Arabs. Only a few rare individuals are able to withstand the pressure. After three years, the majority leave the army as tough men with blunted sensibilities. The brutality in our streets, the routine killings around the discotheques, the proliferation of rape and violence within the family – all these have undoubtedly been influenced by the day-to-day reality of the occupation. After all, it’s the same people who are doing it.”

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1181338783

19 06 2007
tucci

anon..i love your logic: Criticize Israel? You’re an Anti-Semite!

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0901-22.htm

19 06 2007
tucci

today, it just isn’t possible to have a civil debate about Israel, because any serious criticism of its policies is instantly countered with charges of anti-Semitism

20 06 2007
Victim of Allied Imperialism

Doltbuster:

There appears to be a headline reading “Ueberfall auf Gleiwitzer Sender” (attack on Gleiwitz radio station) in one of the pictures. However it is impossible to read more

I found some resources in English and German regarding the issue. It is mentioned that an incidence had happened, however it is still not clear what exactly and how it matches up with the accounts of Naujocks.

The incidence was not mentioned or exploited by any Hitler speech or other official outlet. Altogether there were 44 incidences reported for the days before according to a German yearbook source and not all of them could have been invented or staged.

It is disputed that Naujocks gave true account, for a number of reasons that can be found below in German language.

http://www.nexusboard.net/showthread.php?siteid=6365&threadid=296774&nx=28c3bf59108848e50aefbe2067f461e0
http://www.ruf-ch.org/RF_Archiv/2003/07-8/Mobilmachung.html

There is only one wittness Naujocks and a number of contradictions. Furthermore Naujocks was sacked from the SS during the war and he is reported to have wittnessed other similar killings and events that could not be verified.

Any staged attack would have had little value. It had happened about 10 hours before the start of the war. Furthermore it is reported that Germany tried to negotiate until the last minute while Poland did not react. As mentioned before, Britain should declassify its archives for answering questions.

No one would have believed the incidence as single cause for the war either, nor would such an event leave an important propagandistic impression or influence regarding the circumstances.

The war came after a dispute that lasted since before Hitler and was not settled between Germany and Poland in the years before. Germans and others, for instance Ukrainians were mistreated and even out in concentrations camps, the first ones in Europe. Hundreds of thousands of Germans were expelled already in the 1920is. There was an escalation spiral until the outbreak of the war, in particular during the previous months.

There is a well written article that lists polish sentiments to Germans now and then and deals with events before the outbreak of war

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/wrsynopsis.html

Here is a quotation from the article:

On August 7th, 1939 the Ilustrowany Kurjer featured an article “which described with provocative effrontery how military units were continually foraying across the border into German territory in order to destroy military installations and to take weapons and tools of the German Wehrmacht back to Poland.

According to this quotation there were actually severe provocations and border incidences over an extended period of time and not just a few staged or invented ones in the days before.

20 06 2007
Anon

Tucci, it is anti-Semitism because your kind is anti-Semitic. There is nothing wrong with criticizing Israel as long as you apply the same standards to all ME countries in the Middle East. However, your anti-Semitic kind is singling Israel out.

This is what Poland is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2yUCA1qqDk

20 06 2007
Joe

Why argue with an obvious liar or master of deception? Anon/jon speaks of all the great accomplishments of jews in israel; US money made this possible; without it they would be living in tents and fighting the arabs for their camels. More great accomplishments are one child murdered everyday, the bulldozing of arab homes and the theft of land.
Another is the attack by our dear “ALLY” on the U.S.S. Liberty June 8, 1967 where 34 proud sailors were murdered and 170 injured as our “ALLY” tried to draw the US into their war and make it look like egypt did it. And the lying, deception and cover-up followed.
And whatever happened to those “five dancing israelis” who “just happened” to have a great view of the burning towers on 9-11 conveniently filming the atrocity. the cameras rolled as they danced and lit lighters like at a rock concert.
Another great accomplishment was the five, and another 200 who were arrested (ALL were in the country illegally!) were somehow spirited away back to israel and all records of their arrests were sealed!
The best accomplishment is getting the US to shed Christian blood in Iraq for israel. There were no weapoms of mass destruction, and at $3.00/gallon it sure is not for oil! Saddam Hussein wrote his future in 1990 when he launched his scud missiles at israel.
israel a democracy? A laughable joke, there is no mention of the word democracy in their constitution, they HAVE NO constitution!
Our coming war with Iran will be another great accomplishment as we shed more we lose more soldiers for them.
The best by far is that the stupid American people think this nation is our “ALLY”.
Tell me anon, what treaty do we have, when was it signed and whose signatures are on it?

20 06 2007
Victim of Allied Imperialism

Doltbuster:

There appears to be a headline reading “Ueberfall auf Gleiwitzer Sender” (attack on Gleiwitz radio station) in one of the pictures. However it is impossible to read more

I found some resources in English and German regarding the issue. It is mentioned that an incidence had happened, however it is still not clear what exactly and how it matches up with the accounts of Naujocks.

The incidence was not mentioned or exploited by any Hitler speech or other official outlet. Altogether there were 44 incidences reported for the days before according to a German yearbook source and not all of them could have been invented or staged.

It is disputed that Naujocks gave true account, for a number of reasons that can be found below in German language.

http://www.nexusboard.net/showthread.php?siteid=6365&threadid=296774&nx=28c3bf59108848e50aefbe2067f461e0
http://www.ruf-ch.org/RF_Archiv/2003/07-8/Mobilmachung.html

There is only one wittness and a number of contradictions. Furthermore Naujocks was sacked from the SS during the war and he is reported to have wittnessed other similar killings and events that could not be verified.

Any staged attack would have had little value. It had happened about 10 hours before the start of the war. Furthermore it is reported that Germany tried to negotiate until the last minute while Poland did not react. As mentioned before, Britain should declassify its archives for answering questions.

No one would have believed the incidence as single cause for the war either, nor would such an event leave an important propagandistic impression or influence regarding the circumstances.

The war came after a dispute that lasted since before Hitler and was not settled between Germany and Poland in the years before. The border was not recognised by any German government, there was yet no established peace.

Germans and others, for instance Ukrainians were mistreated and even put in concentrations camps, the first ones in Europe. Hundreds of thousands of Germans were expelled already in the 1920is and many killed. There was an escalation spiral until the outbreak of the war, in particular during the previous months.

There is a well written article that lists polish sentiments to Germans now and then and deals with events before the outbreak of war

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/wrsynopsis.html

Here is a quotation from the article:

On August 7th, 1939 the Ilustrowany Kurjer featured an article “which described with provocative effrontery how military units were continually foraying across the border into German territory in order to destroy military installations and to take weapons and tools of the German Wehrmacht back to Poland.

According to this quotation there were actually severe provocations and border incidences over an extended period of time and not just a few staged or invented ones in the days before.

20 06 2007
blazej

Just to Anon,

Love, that’s Germany. I thought you’d say something more intelligent.

20 06 2007
JC

A do-it-yourself Anon post:

hehehe…. Your kind is always blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah.
Blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah. Blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah! Blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah. Would you pick up Jesus if blahblah blahblahblahblahblahblahblah?

Who breeds your vile, anti-Semitic kind?

Israel has the best blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah.
Israel has the highest blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah.
Israel is the only blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah.
Israel is the most blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah.
Only in Israel blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah.

You like trashy Jews such as blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah. The press is always blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah. You will never blahblahblah blahblahblahblahblahblah. Never!

21 06 2007
Anon

Joe, thank god for your ignorant, vile kind. Thank you very much. It is the creatures like you who make it possible for the intelligent ones to move ahead and prosper.

1. You will never learn that as charitable as the USA is our foreign aid for the most part is directed toward the countries that benefit the US and advance the US interests. In Israel’s case we get the best possible return:

a) During the cold war Israel was capable to destroy the Soviet fleet in the Mediterranean in 3 hours.
b) Israel assisted the US in bringing the Soviet Empire to convulsion and finally to disintegration which, by the way, benefited Poland.
c) The Israeli security agencies are some of the best in the world. They bring the US the critical intelligence. That information preserves the US interests in the Middle East and other areas.
d) The US aid represents a tiny fraction of the Israeli GNP. However, by providing that help we made sure that Israel integrates into its foreign and even domestic policies the US strategic interest.

I can easily bring up at least 10 more very valid points. I can even educate your kind but from my perspective it would be a lot more beneficial if you stay ignorant. That way I will always be able to demonstrate your hateful nature. Your ignorance works in my favor.

P.S. The Liberty Case was investigated for 30 years. It was one of the most investigated cases in US history. In the end Israel was found innocent by a well-respected judge.

21 06 2007
Greg

“Tell me anon, what treaty do we have, when was it signed and whose signatures are on it?”

Joe, good point. I wanted to mention it while reading your post, but apparently you are aware of it, already.

Salute,
Greg

21 06 2007
blazej

Joe,

I don’t know whether Israel has a written constitution or not, but the fact that a country doesn’t such a written document, doesn’t mean that can’t be democracy – United Kingdom doesn’t have constitution either.

And besides, it takes more for constitution to be democratic, then just a statement that a country is a democratic country. That doesn’t really mean anything. All the democratic principles have to be used in practice, and may be written in the constitution (but this can be other document or simply tradition).

The principles being inter alia:
– rule of law
– all persons are equal in the law
– separation of powers
– election have to obey the five adjectives: be universal, direct, equal; ballot has to be secret and majority
– law doesn’t work backwards
– a person cannot be brought to court for the same thing twice
– right to defence and impartial trial
– right to appeal to all court and administrative decisions
– free speech, right to expression, freedom of religion, freedom of association and gathering, forming political parties and fighting for one’s or groups interests,
– human rights including human social rights (right to healthcare, benefits in case of illness, disability, old age, right to a wage allowing independent existence and appropriate living standard)
and so on and so forth

21 06 2007
polishpress

Anon, if anyone here is hateful and ignorant, and racist or ultra-nationalist, it would have to be you.

Anti-Semitism is nothing else as some way of racism, and your disgusting rhetoric (your constant referring to others as “their kind” and “their vile kind”) and argumentation clearly show your contempt to other peoples and nations than your own. YOU are the racist, I see no difference between you and fascists – you only hate and despise of different groups.

21 06 2007
Tony

My ancestors did not invade America, but certainly Imperial Europe did. So what? That means the Palestinians should what, disappear? They should just turn over the keys and deeds to their homes to the Jews? So what are you suggesting about Native-Americans, that there is a movement to ‘send’ the Europeans back? Pretty bad analogy Disgust.

21 06 2007
Anon

Pawel, go to Nigeria, Sudan, Chechnia, Iraq, Kashmir..show your humanity. Be a man! You will never do it cause your kind will always forus on the type of ridiculous stories like the Israeli teenages messing up (God forbid!) an Israeli hotel room. That is all your kind is good for.

4 10 2011
D

Your points are very valid, Anon!

Many are still blinded by jealousy and other low emotions which they then point at successful people. The Polish are currently one of the best examples of holding on to ignorance and stupidity I saw in my life. I have been living in Poland and can say that the majority of people (with many exceptions, of course) keep being bad-humoured, backward, destructive, jealous and vile to the extreme. This backwardness and primitivity is probably connected to the long-term alcoholism and catholicism. They constantly feel as victims of someone else (Russians, Germans, Jews, family… etc…) instead of looking for solutions and forcefully deny any critique on anything wrong they do instead of learning and progressing.

You described that story of those Jews who were living a long time in Poland and then came very exhausted to the USA. That’s exactly how I felt after 2 years in Poland.

Thankfully, many people in Israel, western Europe, USA and many other countries evolved to a higher level and hopefully will be progressing so the whole humanity can move on to it’s great destiny.

I am optimistic of the future.

All the best to you!

D

21 06 2007
polishpress

OK Anon, I get your point. But this article is not about the situation of Israel, and believe me I am very very very far from favouring Arab dictatorships or Islamic “republics” over Israel.
This article is about wrong security precautions and general inappropriate behaviour of the youth, which may leave bad impression.

This is in no one’s interests to have this situation continue.

It will only be to the benefit of understanding one another if these trips were somehow connected with an educational action and discussing and socialising with Poles. Like it is between the French and the German, between Polish and the German youth, etc.

Anon, the fact that some countries continuously brake basic human rights, does not mean that countries like Poland, Germany, Ireland, France, Italy, UK or – yes – Israel don’t have a space for improvement, although you are of course right that the main focus of concern should be located in these regions.

7 07 2007
An American

Anon,

GET A LIFE!!

And dont take Bayer Asprin, It was created by Nazis

17 07 2007
racism goes on NYtimes didn't mention it

‘Everywhere we will be surrounded by Poles. We will hate them because of their participation in Holocaust’.

what is REALLY newsworthy about this story is NOT ONLY the behaviour of the armed thugs who accompany the teenagers BUT THIS FACT-
An INSTRUCTION!!! on conduct with the local inhabitants given away to Israeli teenagers coming to Poland couple years ago may confirm professor’s opinion. It contained such a paragraph: ‘Everywhere we will be surrounded by Poles. We will hate them because of their participation in Holocaust’.
They are not equal partners to any kind of discussion. It applies also to our common history, contemporary history and politics. In result Israeli youth see Poles as second category people, as potential enemies’ – he explains bluntly.
‘Everywhere we will be surrounded by Poles. We will hate them because of their participation in Holocaust’.

CAN ANYONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF POLISH YOUTH WERE DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING JEWS DO IN POLAND? WITH INSTRUCTION WE WILL HATE JEWS BECASUE THEY HAVE BEEN MURDERING CHRISTIANS FOR CENTURIES AND ARE THE MOST RACIST NATION IN THE WORLD??? WHAT WOULD THE JEWISH USA MASS MEDIA SAY? WHAT WOULD EUROPEAN JEWISH MEDIA SAY? WHAT WOULD YOU SAY???!!!

23 07 2007
Zibi

What a shame! Israel, please do something with this. Educate your kids and teach them how to behave in public places like hotels, or do not bring them to Poland. Poland suffered so much from Nazi, and where thousands lost their lives, for helping Jews. Do you know how many Poles died in WWII? Milions! How country suffered in 1939-1945, how infrastructure was destroyed. What a misery than was to live under Germans/Soviet ocupation?
Thousands of polish families died-disapeared, no one cries for them, many more lost their loveones and they cried.
Please tell your youth the whole story, I beg you!
Israeli Ambasador Mr Peleg and President of Poland Mr Kaczynski – two great man, are working hard to have a good relationship between Poland and Israel. That is the way-good relationship!
Thank you

2 08 2007
alexandersays

Thank you for saying the truth.

2 08 2007
Israelis are unwelcome in Poland « Bone To Pick

[...] Israelis are unwelcome in Poland The full story you can find by clicking on this link http://polishpress.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/israeli-teenagers-are-a-nuisance-in-poland/ [...]

6 08 2007
skip

Norman Finkelstein has shown how the Shoah has been exploited to provide cudgel to beat down the Palestinians. But even more astonishing is this: one wouldn’t think it possible to turn the holocaust tragedy into a bore but it has happened over time. Hundreds of endlessly repetitive movies have numbed the populace.

And these trips to Poland serve no positive purpose. Better would be bus tours of the Gaza strip.

13 08 2007
Erich Mannstein

Most Poles still don’t get it. You must keep in mind that Jews consider themselves the chosen people better than non Jews in every way. It’s called Jewish Supremecism. That’s why they treat the Palestinians the way that they do.

A Jewish Rabbi has claimed recently that the samll fingernail of a Jew is worth more that 10,000 Arab lives.

I had an Israeli colleague tell me in all seriosness that the Palestinians are animals.

Now if you’re brought up with such a mind set what else would you expect from Jewish teenagers when they come to Poland. The think that Poles are beneath them in every way. They think they can do as in Gaza or the West Bank.

As for Israel being a democracy similar to the US tell that to Israeli Arabs. This statement is an insult to me as a US citizen. The Israeli Arabs are treated as second class citizens. Former President Jimmy Carter had it right, Israel is an Apartheid Regime.

Incidentally, Shlomo Morel who is wanted by the Polish State Prosecuter to stand trial for crimes against humanity is still living in Tel Aviv on a fat Geraman pension because Israel won’t extradite him to Poland. Jews insist that non Jews stand trial for such an offence but when one of their own is accused, Israel protects the perpetrator. We are the Jews who have the power and don’t you ever forget it. That’s the prevailing attitude of this Sh-ty Little Country in the Middle East as a French diplomat described Israel at a London dinner party.

How is it that the number of alleged victims at Auschwitz went form 4 Million to 1.5 Million yet the magic 6 Million remains cast in stone? Is ther Jewish arithmetic at work here or what?

Just wondering.

14 08 2007
island1

An issue that seems to have been overlooked: exactly how are Israeli security guards allowed to stop, question, or in any other way interfere with persons going about their business on Polish soil? If I were a Pole, or indeed a citizen of any other nation, impeded in my daily business by a hired goon I would take out my national identity papers/passport, explain the concept of national sovereignty and ask what the hell business he had standing in my way. I rather enjoy living in Poland, but I’m alarmed by the idea that privately hired security guards are allowed to put me up against a wall and question me about my motives. Is that not what the Police force is for?

27 08 2007
Wilf J

re: Erich Mannstein

Agree 100%.

The real issue is that the “average man/woman” in the street simply isn’t aware of whats really going on with these people and their representatives. Awareness needs to be changed and nothing will happen until it is. Major criticism of world jewry and all its departments is well overdue, well overdue. Hypothetically, any intelligent being looking in from space would think these people could walk on water from the almost universal way they get special treatment, preferentially in all forms and guises.

They can throw the Anti-Semite card at me all day long, I don’t particularly care, its getting old and tired. And the sooner people realised this the better.

To get back on topic I often used to spend time in Sinai, Dahab was a favourite haunt mine until the Jew teenagers (army age) started ruining the place. They turned a beautiful laid back area into cacophony central, we often had to bang on walls and scream at them to shut up.

One time I was there I remember a conversation that has stuck with me to this day. A young jew girl told me how she and her mother used to get gratification from throwing buckets of their human waste down onto Arab families as they walked by below.

Nice people…

17 10 2007
Harry Swan

I’m glad to see that the comments became more sane as I scrolled down. This type of behavior is NOT justifiable from ANY nationality/religion/whatever.

No shame ,perhaps? That’s ok. They’re the chosen people. Take your discrimination and bigotry like a man, right?

12 02 2008
quintaldo

the jews suffer from collective insanity.
that “chosen people” belief is at the core of it, along with the fairytale of persecution.
their religion is about re-enacting their stories of persecutions.

it must be difficult to be a jewish youth indeed.
lets break down the basic programming they are exposed to:

1/ you are superior
2/ you have been and will be persecuted, all the world is your enemy
3/ you must fend for yourselves agressively and ruthlessly if you want to survive
4/ anybody who criticizes us is a nazi

…and we get the current israel policies.

the root of the problem is the jewish religion, i guess.

13 02 2008
quintaldo

And anon/john… “your kind” sucks. Big time. It stinks.

18 02 2008
Boris

John/Anon,
Poles had every reason to hate Jews. From the perspective of Polish peasants, Jews embodied evil temptation. And like a parasite, they prayed on gentiles’ weaknesses. Your manipulative kind will prosper economically wherever it goes… as long as you manage to demoralize the host. That’s why Arabs hate you: because you are a degenerate nuisance with your progress. It’s got nothing to do with your supposed levels of refinement and wealth, on the contrary, it’s that you are so tasteless. Sorry, but not everyone is infected with Judeo-Superiority Complex. Most importantly, you lionize your destructive accomplishments, and are inherent liars. If you choose to continue bullshitting your way into a prosperous and secure existence, then you should also be ready for serious repercussions. Don’t blame the gentile, blame your HaShem for sending you what you deserve.
Some historical facts:
1). Jewish merchants were eventually afforded a monopoly on alcohol distribution throughout most of Poland, including the Ukraine. This meant that the person who regularly demanded tax payments from such peasant “slaves,” the person who managed the land and made decisions upon which the impoverished peasants were exploited, the person who dragged the peasant’s child away, the man who drove the peasant into deeper debt, and the man who sold the peasants booze to drink away their misery, all had a Jewish face. In the mid-eighteenth century, in rural areas of parts of Eastern Europe, up to 85% of the Jewish population “was involved in some aspect of manufacturing, wholesaling, or retailing of beer, mead, wine, and grain-based intoxicants, like vodka.” [LEVINE, p. 9]
Anti-Semites,” says H. H. Ben-Sasson, “ascribed the drunkenness prevalent among the peasants and their permanent state of indebtedness to the wily Jewish taverner, who also extended credit to them.” [BARON, ECHJ, p. 136] (Gentile accusations that Jewish saloon owners were poisoning the non-Jewish populace with alcohol and contributing to moral decay even had a direct parallel to Jewish commercial activities in the American South at the turn of the twentieth century. Jews, who “overwhelmingly opposed prohibition,” yet were known themselves as “unusually sober,” were singled out for attack by Christian temperance leaders for their great role in the liquor trade, for what was described as Jewish greed and pursuit of profit at the expense of public health and morality. [LINDEMANN, p. 232] During the prohibition years, the Seagram’s alcohol fortune was built by the Bronfman family, who ran illegal liquor into the United States from Canada; one of the heirs of this fortune, Edgar Bronfman, is the current head of the Jewish World Congress).
Jews continued to invest in and propagate alcohol, a product they recognized was harmful and were disinclined to use themselves (short of ritual wine uses). By the late nineteenth century perhaps the largest brewery in Europe, Schultheiss-Patzenhofer, “was a ‘Jewish firm’ (in terms of management, Board membership, and financial links).” [MOSSE, p. 12-13] In the Ukraine, by 1872, after the feudal system had passed into history, wealthy Jews owned about 90% of Ukraine’s distilleries, as well as 56% of its sawmills, 48% of its tobacco production, and 33% of the sugar refineries. [SUBTLENY, p. 277] A Jewish business mogul, notes Chaim Weizman, the Russian-born first president of israel, “Mr. Brodsky, [was] the sugar king of Russia.” [WEIZMAN, C., 1949, p. 100]
2). Anthropologist Frances Pine notes traditional peasant perceptions of local lawyers and innkeepers (code words for Jews, especially the latter) in the Polish mountain area known as the Podhale:
“Lawyers and innkeepers were portrayed as encouraging village men to drink and then, when they were unable to pay their debts, taking their lands as forfeit. Many of these stories probably contain substantial truths; for instance, land records from the 19th until the mid-20th century show frequent mortgaging of lands and transfers of land title to pay off debt to non-villagers who are listed as innkeepers and advocates.” [Pine, F., 1999, p. 52]
3). A well-known historian of Eastern Europe, scholar Norman Davies, notes the typical Jewish myopia and distortion on the subject as evidenced in Martin Gilbert’s Jewish History Atlas. Gilbert claims that over 100,000 Jews were massacred in attacks by Cossacks beginning in 1648. Martin even writes that “[the Cossacks] joined with the Polish peasants in attacking the Jews.” “[Gilbert's readers],” notes Davies, “might easily get the impression that the Chmielnicki massacres were directed mainly, if not exclusively, at Jews. In fact, there were virtually no Polish peasants at that period in the areas marked on Gilbert’s map, and the attacks on the Jews were but one part of a terrible vengeance wracked by the Cossacks and their associates on everyone who they regarded as agents of feudal oppression.” Gilbert also noted an area where 5,000 Jews a year died of starvation in 1880-1914. “Again,” says Davies, “the unsuspecting reader might be led to assume that the Jews of Galicia were the main or even only victims of starvation. There is nothing in the text to indicate that the Polish and Ukrainian peasants of Galicia were starving in even greater numbers.” [DAVIES, Between, p. 248]
http://polishpress.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/israeli-teenagers-are-a-nuisance-in-poland/

22 06 2008
Bat

John’s discourse is part of the current Israeli agenda: Make them feel guilty and ask for compensations. They have already squeezed Switzerland, Austria (not to talk about Germany). Now it is the turn of Poland, Hungary and Romania. Be sure if they have been able to blackmail the Swiss banks, they will succeed in Eastern Europe in collecting compensations.

1 12 2008
Adrian Wainer

If it was not for the Polish volunteer Pilots in the RAF in the Battle of Britain, Britain could been beaten. America showed how prepared she was for War at Pearl Harbor! With Britain overrun by the Third Reich and Hitler able to fight Russia without threat of interference from a now defeated Britain, it is very likely he would have defeated the USSR. The prospects for an America sandwiched between Imperial Japan and a Third Reich which has occupied Britain and which now has access to Russia’s vast natural resources and heavy industry after the defeat of the USSR are bleak. What future for the Jewish people in a World ruled by the Third Reich?

http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/WWII/britain/link.shtml

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

1 12 2008
Adrian Wainer

John wrote
[quote]
Quote
What do they Poles expect that the current Jews act like their grandparents did in Poland when the Poles could round them up and send them to be gassed? The Jedwabne Jews are gone. The Jews will never again allow the Poles to kill Jews. It seems that some Poles of today are longing for the days of an obedient, freightened Jew of yesterday when their greatgrandparents and grandparents could easily kill the Jews with total impunity. There was a good reason the Hitlerites picked Poland to exterminate the European Jewry. Poland has always been hateful of Jews.
UnQuote
[/quote]

Sir you are simply talking rubbish, it was the Third Reich which sought to exterminate the Jews not the Poles. There were all sorts of reasons why Poland was picked for the placement of extermination camps, an expectation of co-operation of the Polish nation in the project was not one of them. One might wonder too, if Poland has always been unwelcoming of Jews as you say, how come Poland came to have such a large and culturally sophiscated Jewish community prior to their extermination at the hands of the Nazis.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

1 12 2008
Adrian Wainer

uintaldo (21:12:38) : wrote

Quote
the jews suffer from collective insanity.
that “chosen people” belief is at the core of it, along with the fairytale of persecution.
their religion is about re-enacting their stories of persecutions.

it must be difficult to be a jewish youth indeed.
lets break down the basic programming they are exposed to:

1/ you are superior
2/ you have been and will be persecuted, all the world is your enemy
3/ you must fend for yourselves agressively and ruthlessly if you want to survive
4/ anybody who criticizes us is a nazi

…and we get the current israel policies.

the root of the problem is the jewish religion, i guess.
Quote

What a load of rubbish, Ha ha the Jews are not the chosen people, they chose God, that is a difference. Lots of Jews both criticize and support the State of Israel, I suppose that would make them Nazis in their own eyes and the eyes of other Jews in your interpretation of how Jews think. Judaism is one of the few religions historically that was able to reconcile encouraging its flock supporting states which were of a different religion, a bizarre attitude indeed to take, if Judaism is imbued with an overweening sense of superiority as you claim.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

1 12 2008
Adrian Wainer

Anonymous (19:45:22) : Wrote

Quote

The polish press, for your information, anti-Semitism is a viral condition and those who have that condition are infected. Why don’t you sue Itzhak Shamir, the former Israeli PM, who happens to be still alive. He was born in Poland, and is obviously well aware of his Polish compatriots. “Poles suckle anti-Semitism with their mothers’ milk.”

So, back to the facts how many Bengalis, Pushtuns or Germans have forced the Poles to burn the Jews in Jedwabne?

UnQuote

In your comments about Poles you sound like Nazis talking about Jews, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

8 12 2008
Andrei

To all anti-semites: Die! And Jesus will bless you! :)

4 01 2009
Lech Bajan

Israel is a Nazi State
Worldwide protests denounce Israel

Palestinians demonstrate in the Israeli town of Sakhnin [AFP]

Angry protests against Israel’s bombardment of the Gaza Strip have continued throughout the world, with two of the largest demonstrations taking place in London and in Sakhnin in northern Israel.

Other large demonstrations were staged in Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, Srinagar in Indian-administered Kashmir, Lebanon, Turkey and the West Bank.

Protesters in Kabul pumped their fists into the air and shouted slogans against Israel and the United States, while in Srinagar activists burned an effigy of Ehud Olmert, Israel’s outgoing prime minister.

In Ramallah in the West Bank, Palestinians seeking national unity marched through streets and there were clashes with Israeli riot police.

Israel protests

In the northern Israeli town of Sakhnin up to 150,000 Israeli-Palestinians have protested against Israel’s offensive.

IN DEPTH

Latest news and analysis from Gaza and Israel

Crowds waving Palestinian flags and brandishing pro-Palestinian placards chanted “Gaza will not surrender to the tanks and bulldozers!” and “Don’t fear, Gaza, we are with you!”

Thousands of police were deployed on the outskirts of the town and across northern Israel following a number of violent protests against the Gaza operation in recent days.

Following a minute’s silence, Mazem Ghanaim, Sakhnin’s mayor, called for an immediate halt to the Gaza offensive.

Ghanaim said: “The Israeli occupation forces is conducting crimes in Gaza before the eyes of the international community. We call for an immediate stop to the Gaza offensive.”

He also said Gaza fighters should halt their rocket fire against southern Israel.

Mohammed Barakeh, an Israeli-Palestinian politician, said the Sakhnin demonstration was “our answer to the Israeli threats against the Palestinian people in Gaza”.

“We are determined to stand alongside our brothers in Gaza to stop the bloodshed and massacre

20 01 2009
Alex Bajan

Polish protesters beat up in an official ceremony with Israeli Ambassador David Peleg protesters arrested.

In the news video (in Polish – sorry), you will see a small group protesters, standing near the wall, not bothering anybody, holding a large sign that reads

“Stop the butchery in Gaza”

You will see a man in a yarmulka get up from his chair, walk all the way across the room, and start to swing punches at the surprised protesters.

Poland is a civilized country, after all, and while things like that happen, they tend to at soccer matches between hooligans, not in an official function with an Israeli ambassador with lots of cameras present.

This is not Israel where women are stoned by fanatical Orthodox Jews for wearing red color clothes (MSNBC article).

It looks like it is OK to beat up a woman with your manly, macho fists if the woman is palestinian.

To skandal. Zatrzymano ludzi pobitych, a nie udało się ustalić tożsamości tego, kto ich pobił, choć wyraźnie widać go na filmie a na dodatek był jednym z zaproszonych gości (wystarczy sprawdzić listę zaproszonych żeby się dowiedzieć kto to był). Nasza policja jest najbardziej absurdalną i niedołężną policją świata.

20 01 2009
Alex Bajan

Jedwabne: The Politics of Apology and Contrition, Defamation. The Price of Poland’s Heroism

Jedwabne: The Politics of Apology and Contrition, Defamation: The Price of Poland’s Heroism
Presented at the Panel “Jedwabne – A Scientific Analysis”
Polish Institute of Arts and Sciences in America, Inc.
Annual Meeting, June 8, 2002

Georgetown University, Washington DC

A Historic Narrative

Today, as we are contemplating the tragedy of Jedwabne of sixty years ago, it is a bitter irony to see what has been called the “politics of apology and contrition” being used by post-communist leaders in an attempt to re-write the historical record. This irony is particularly cruel to my generation of Polish survivors of Nazi and Soviet terror.

It is entirely fitting and proper that Mr. Miller, the Prime Minister of Poland, remember with reverence the sufferings of Jewish people in Poland and elsewhere. It is not appropriate, however, to falsely implicate innocent nation for the crime of Jedwabne, and to exonerate German perpetrators, by convenient selective memory of the historical facts, and in process to obscure the crimes of the communist party.

The great heroic deeds of Poland of the 20th century benefited the entire world. Such was the derailing of Lenin’s world revolution based on the Moscow- Berlin axis in 1920 as well as derailing of Hitler’s strategy for domination of the entire world in 1939. Poland’s heroism lived on in the wartime combat of Polish soldiers, airmen, and seamen, as well as Europe’s largest resistance movement and the very existence of the Polish underground state under enemy occupation. Polish armed resistance continued during the postwar years of pacification by the Soviet terror apparatus.

After World War I the Poles declared their independence on Nov. 11, 1918. To keep their independence, the Poles had to win borderland wars. By far the most important was the Polish victory, led by Marshal Józef Pilsudski, over Lenin’s Red Army in 1920. Lenin had attempted to overrun Poland and form a Moscow-Berlin alliance in order to stage a worldwide communist revolution. Germans resented their defeat in World War I; at the time millions of Germans were ready to accept a communist government in return for the re-annexation of western and northern Poland, once those lands would be occupied by the Soviets. The Polish victory deprived Lenin of a chance for a worldwide revolution. The Soviets then retaliated with terror and eventually murdered more Polish nationals than did the Germans, during the World War II, in 1939-1941. In the Spring of 1940 alone the NKVD executed 21,857 members of Polish leadership community. About four-fifths of all victims were betrayed to the NKVD by local leftists mostly of Jewish background.

In 1939 Poland again decisively shaped world’s history, as Germany and Japan had signed the Anti-Comintern Pact in 1936 and Japan attacked the USSR in 1938. Hitler, in an advanced stage of Parkinson’s disease, was in a hurry to start an anti-Soviet crusade to build his “1,000 year Reich” from Riga to the Black Sea and control world’s main oil resources for his “war of the engines.” Poland, a physical barrier between Germany and the USSR, was to become an impediment on Hitler’s road to the domination of the world.

Hitler, warned by his generals that Germany had insufficient military manpower for his grandiose schemes, strived in 1935-1939 to have on his side Poland’s potential 3,500,000 soldiers. The Berlin government felt that combining German and Polish forces in Europe with Japanese forces in Asia would bring a decisive victory over the USSR German control over the world’s main oil fields was essential to secure Hitler world domination.

The Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs Józef Beck, while following the strategic advice of the late Marshal Pilsudski, held both the Germans and the Soviets at bay as long as it was possible. The Polish refusal in January 1939 to join the Anti-Comintern Pact derailed Hitler’s plans and caused him to lose his chance to join Japan in the attack on the USSR. Poland, Great Britain, and France exchanged common defense guarantees on March 31, 1939. Hitler signed Fall Weiss plan on April 11 and ordered the attack on Poland on September 1, 1939.

On July 25, 1939, Poland gave Great Britain and France each a copy of a linguistic deciphering electro-mechanical device for the German secret military code system Enigma, complete with specifications, perforated cards, and updating procedures. Thanks to the Polish solution for breaking the Enigma, the British project Ultra was able to interpret German secret messages during the entire war of 1939-1945. The invasion of Normandy would not have been possible without it. In 1999, the American code expert David A. Hatch of the Center of Cryptic History, NSA, Fort George G. Meade, Maryland wrote that “the breaking of the Enigma by Poland was one of the cornerstones of Allied victory over Germany.”

As we all know, despite the crucial Polish contributions and sacrifices for the Allies’ victory, Poland was betrayed by Roosevelt and Churchill first at Teheran and then at Yalta; it was handed over to become a Soviet satellite state, after a ruthless pacification by the communist terror apparatus which followed German mass executions.

The Tragedy of Jedwabne Explained by the Evidence of Two Graves and German Archives

Thus, on July 10, 1941 German executioners collected Jews of Jedwabne in the town square and drove them by physical violence to the site of their murder. First they shot some 50 Jews and then burned alive 250 others (not 1600 or 1800 as inaccurately reported in the American press on the basis of false information published by J. T. Gross who ignored Soviet and other sources as well as German archives in his book Neighbors).

The executioners of the Einsatztrupen enlisted help of several ethnic Germans (the “Volksdeutche” known as traitors and spies), and a group of primitive and illiterate criminals, both local and from out of town, as well as possibly a few “avengers.” The latter must have believed that they and their relatives had suffered murderous persecution by Soviet security officers and deportation to the Gulag because of the betrayal by some of the Jews living in Jedwabne. German executioners forced an additional number of Poles, at gunpoint, with blows of rifle butts, and with threats, to help bring Jewish victims to the town square (the marketplace) ostensibly to clean the pavement.

According to eyewitnesses still living today, uniformed Germans committed this wartime atrocity. They forced some 300 Jews to march in a mock-funeral procession while carrying a concrete head of Lenin that had been removed from a monument.

The Germans of the Einsatzgrupen divided the marchers into two groups. The first group consisted of some 50 Jews, men strong enough to put up a fight. The second group was formed from the approximately 250 remaining Jews, mostly old people, women, and children.

While the second group was held back, the first group was directed into a 62.4 by 23 feet wooden barn. The keys to the barn were confiscated a day earlier by uniformed Germans, who removed agricultural machinery from it and prepared it for the execution of the Jews next day. (The daughter of the owner of the barn repeatedly testified about this facts, most recently on the CBS “60 minutes” on March 24, 2002.)

The 50 Jewish men were ordered to dig a large grave inside the barn, ostensibly for burying Lenin’s concrete head. (J. T. Gross wants his readers to believe that the head of Lenin was buried in the Jewish cemetery.) As the diggers stood near the grave, the Germans shot them and then ordered several Poles to drag into the shallow grave the bodies of the Jews, some slain and some wounded but possibly still alive. Lenin’s concrete head was placed on top of the victims in the grave #1. The German executioners then ordered the second, more defenseless, group into the barn, which moments later would be turned into a gigantic funeral pyre.

Stefan Boczkowski, Roman Chojnowski and five other eyewitnesses reported seeing the following: A small German military truck loaded with soldiers and gasoline canisters quickly pulled up to the barn crowded with Jews. Some of the soldiers jumped down from the truck, and those soldiers staying in the truck handed them the canisters, whose contents they poured on all outer walls of the barn. The flames engulfed the barn at once. Pyrotechnic analysis indicates that the Germans used approximately 100 gallons (over 400 liters) of gasoline to soak some 1000 square ft. of walls of the barn in order to engulf all of it with fire, burn it and in process suffocate the victims (by inhalation of the hot smoke). Later (reportedly the next day) the Germans ordered Poles at gunpoint to bury the partly burned bodies emanating a horrible odor. Remains of about 250 victims were buried in the grave #2 located along the barn (the high content of water in human bodies requires temperature of some 800 degrees Centigrade for more than thirty minutes in order to obtain a complete cremation).

At that time there was no gasoline available to the local population of Jedwabne (only a small amount of hydrocarbons in form of kerosene for lamps was available to the rural population). Such small amounts of kerosene (as mentioned by J. T. Gross) with its flashpoint of about 50 degrees Centigrade could not produce a sudden fire to engulf the entire barn at once.

In the 2001 investigation by the Polish government bodies of the victims of the July 10, 1941 massacre were found buried in the graves #1 and #2. Thorough search and drilling some 170 test cores in the vicinity found no other graves of the 1941 massacre of the Jews in Jedwabne; however, at the request of an Orthodox Rabbi who objected, rigorous forensic studies and full exhumation of all victims and the determination by autopsy of causes of death of every one of them was prematurely terminated. Thus, only an approximate number of victims could be estimated by the size of the two graves. Unfortunately these unanswered questions inevitably discredit the veracity of the final report of the official investigation by the Polish government’s agency, the Institute of National Memory (IPN).

The veracity of Grosses book and the film Neighbors is further compromised by a baseless, non-corroborated claim that a cut off head of a Jewish female was kicked around in Jedwabne. Jerzy Robert Nowak, the author of the book 100 Lies By Gross (published in Poland) claims that after its publication he determined additional factual errors in Neighbors.

“The book of Prof. Gross can not be considered as a serious scholarly work: it is rather a tendentious propagandistic pamphlet. He jumps to farfetched conclusions before examining the existing evidence.” wrote to the New York Times M. K. Dziewanowski, Professor of History, author of: History of Soviet Russia, 5th edition, Prentice Hall, 1996.

As Alexander B. Rossino, historian at the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. writes in an article to be printed in Polin, Volume 16, 2003:

“The evidence collected by the West Germans, including the positive identification of [Hauptsturmfuehrer Herman] Schaper by witnesses from Lomza, Tykocin, and Radzilów, suggested that it was indeed Schaper’s men who carried out the killings in those locations. Investigators also suspected, based on the similarity of the methods used to destroy the Jewish communities of Radzilów, Tykocin, Rutki, Zambrów, Jedwabne, Piatnica, and Wizna between July and September 1941 that Schaper’s men were the perpetrators… The method used to kill the Jews of Jedwabne was exactly the same that had been employed by the Gestapo [Einsatsgrupen] to kill the Jews of Radzilow only three days earlier.”

During the initial investigation of 1964, German investigator Opitz in Ludwigsburg, Germany, concluded that Hauptsturmfuerer Hermann Schaper’s Einsatskommando conducted the mass execution of Jews in Jedwabne. Nonetheless, Schaper gave conflicting answers to his interrogators. First, he lied that in 1941 he had been a truck driver and he used false names. Later he claimed to have been an administrative officer, and another time a hunter of double agents, when the Gestapo was busy finding and killing communist commissars and Jews.

Court documents at Ludwigsburg archives show that the chief of the German civilian administration in the Nazi occupied Lomza district, Count van der Groeben testified that Schaper conducted mass executions of Jews in his district, which included the town of Jedwabne. That notwithstanding, legal proceedings against Schaper were terminated Sept. 2, 1965 despite positive identification of the defendant by Jewish survivors of the execution in Radzilow and Tykocin.

In 1974 Schaper’s case was reopened and in 1976 a German court in Giesen, Hessen, pronounced the then 68 year old Schaper guilty, together with four other members of the kommando SS Zichenau-Schroettersburg, of executions of Poles and Jews. Schaper was sentenced to a six-year prison, but was soon released for medical reasons. (The facts of Schaper’s dossier are quoted from article by Thomas Urban, reporter of the Suddeutsche Zeitung; Polish text in Rzeczpospolita, Sept 1-2, 2001.)

To make any legal sense now in 2002 the Polish Government should have demanded either the extradition or deposition under oath of Schaper by a German court and not an interview which has no legal meaning and can not give legally binding information. However, the Polish government’s agency IPN gave the press a report that “Hauptsturmfuehrer Hermann Schaper confirmed known facts.”

An Evil Empire and the “Politics of Apology and Contrition”

President Reagan was right: Soviet Union was “an evil empire,” with its communist party that ruled, among other places in the Soviet sphere of influence, Poland with an iron fist for half a century. Now, with a shiny new name of “the Leftist Democratic Union (SLD),” new apologists for the old communist past are starting to act like new emperors, blaming the nation for the crimes of their communist predecessors of the former evil empire. Let me proclaim: these new emperors have no clothes!

You see, Mr. Miller, like the current president of Poland, Mr. Kwasniewski, has an ax to grind. They are both former high officials of the communist party. Yes, this was the party of the same communists whose NKVD security forces, the mainstay of the Soviet terror apparatus, staged the Kielce pogrom in 1946.

At that time Ostap Dluski, the head of the department of foreign affairs of the Central Committee of the Communist Party (PPR), wrote on September 25, 1946 a personal letter to Stanislaw Skrzeszewski, the Polish communist ambassador in Paris, ordering him to carefully plan, organize, and finance with state funds a defamation campaign for the purpose of generating in France a wide- spread condemnation of the “Polish perpetrators” of the Kielce pogrom.

On one hand the NKVD was staging pogroms in all satellite states in order to drive out of East-Central some 700,000 Jews. Those that would arrive to Palestine were to abolish the British mandate there and to foment Jewish-Arab wars in order to interfere with the flow of oil to the west. On the other hand the communist propaganda used the accusation of Polish anti-Semitism to “justify” the need for a protracted stay of the Red Army in Poland long after the war was over. Similarly, the present Polish president and the prime minister distribute internationally the propaganda of the responsibility of the Polish nation for the crime of Jedwabne to obscure communist crimes in Poland.

Mr. Miller and Mr. Kwasniewski are apologists for, the same communists who persecuted Jews in Poland in 1968 under the orders of Jiri Andropov then the head of the Soviet terror apparatus. They are the same communists who oppressed the Polish people for half a century. And they managed to extend their dominance even today.

So what is an ambitious post-communist to do about such an evil and embarrassing past? Why not blame these crimes not on the communist leaders who carried them out, but on the people subjugated by those leaders. That appears to be the strategy embodied by the “politics of apology and contrition,” as practiced in Poland today. One of the latest manifestations of this was on January 10, 2002, when Mr. Miller spoke to the conference of presidents of major Jewish organizations in New York. He betrayed the Polish citizens whom he is supposed to represent by apologizing on the international scene in the name of the Polish nation for crimes committed by the communists and the Nazis.

Mr. Miller and Mr. Kwasniewski are trying to establish that the Polish people were the exterminators of Jews in Poland, while first the Nazis and then the Soviet-installed communist leadership stood around as innocent and helpless bystanders. It is a bizarre behavior for a president and a prime minister of Poland to insist and broadcast to the world that the Polish nation, when under the brutal subjugation of the Nazis, is responsible for the killing of a community of Jews in Jedwabne.

Mr. Kwasniewski, as the current president of Poland, issued his apology during the inquiry into the crime of Jedwabne by an agency of the Polish department of justice thereby violating the independence of the judiciary. For domestic consumption he worded his apology as his personal and in the name of those who want to apologize. However, people throughout the world understood that the president of Poland accepted the full responsibility of the Polish nation for the crime in Jedwabne with all the consequences of the international law.

In order to strengthen the international propaganda effect of the presidential apology the followers of the post-communist leadership now make public acts of contrition and confess publicly to their personal feeling of guilt and remorse and say that they feel permanently tainted by the allegedly Polish crime of Jedwabne, in spite of the fact that because of their age they could not have had any experience of the terror in wartime Poland. These acts of fake contrition contribute to disorientation in America, where people often believe that Poland fought on the side of Hitler; especially, after they participated in the obligatory Holocaust Studies, in which the role of the Jewish Ghetto Police and Administration serving Gestapo is omitted.

The Nazis, according J. T. Gross, unsuccessfully tried to save some of the Jewish victims in Jedwabne, but he insists, that the locals would not let them. Blaming the Polish people for both Nazi-and Soviet-era atrocities against Jews attempts to complete the picture of a hopelessly evil Polish populace – picture that is a familiar sight on American television and in the movies, in which Poles and Poland have had the worst image of all central European nationalities. This also is a picture that is grotesque in its wickedness, transparent in its self-serving post-communist motive, and it is a falsehood in contradiction to the facts that cannot stand against the historical test of time.

Unfortunately the dominant liberal and post-communist press in Poland frequently falsely reported and distorted many known facts. This widespread phenomenon resulted in an addition to the Polish vocabulary of a new word “przeklamanie” meaning “media lies.”

In Jedwabne the local reaction to the current investigation of the crime is full of distrust. It is said that when the investigators dug up the first three skulls, they found in each of them a bullet hole. Apparently about at that point the investigators stopped the exhumation under the pretext that two Rabbis objected to further disturbance of the remains. Now it appears to many people in Jedwabne that bullet holes in these skulls were not what investigators were looking for. The decision to stop the exhumation and forensic studies disqualifies the entire investigation of this horrible crime. “The truth is, to be sure, sometimes hard to grasp, but it is never so illusive as when it is not wanted” (as remarked by Herman H. Dinsmore, All the News That Fits, Arlington House, 1969).

At the present time practically all the forensic evidence remains buried. Under these circumstances the only remedy is to complete the forensic exhumation of the two graves and the surrounding area in order to properly document the murders of Jedwabne as Dr. Moor-Jankowski explained in the preceding presentation.

30 01 2009
Alex Bajan

Yes the Free World has to take to the International Courts all Israeli Leaders and Generals for the Genocide in Gaza and Lebanon. you are correct. soon

1 02 2009
MARTY

reading all this bickering is really hilarious, Hitler really did do a number on everybody….keeping arguing, it will solve all your problems…buhahahah

4 02 2009
Jill

I am a little confused. Why is there such a difference between Poles and Jews? I thought that those who were Jewish, and lived in Poland, were still Poles?

I myself is Catholic. However, in doing my research I have learned that my family lived in mainly Jewish areas in Poland prior to 1935. My Great-Great Aunt herself was placed in a camp when the Nazi’s invaded Poland.

So what does that mean to me? Do I have Jewish blood? Does the suffering of my family mean less because I am NOT Jewish now?

I read the hatred that people write everyday. Why does it continue? Why do we cast blame and not let dead issue remain dead and move forward? Why do Jews act as if they are the only people that suffered?

It really bothers me how the children from Israel treat Poles. As history shows Poland had the greatest population of Jew for hundreds of years…how quickly that has been forgotten.

I wonder how much Poland changed not only as a result of WWII but also with the creation is Israel. I will never understand how a county was created for only one group of people could be a good thing. All it has ever done was bring more hate and suffering into this world.

21 04 2009
heymish

To all the well-meaning:

There is a lot of history…so we can always find things to argue about. Not everyone is bad, except those who can somehow justifying the murder of innocents, especially women and children, based on any alleged crime of their parents/spouses.

One of my great-grandmothers was run down and murdered by Cossacks while in her fifties…what was her possible threat/crime to deserve this? Answer: None!

Yet I can move forward, and respect all the nations. I don’t want to harm anyone that doesn’t want to harm me. Yes, Yidden did live in Poland, for a lot of reasons, for a long time. Let’s not try to draw too many conclusions from this…let’s move forward.

The security guards are usually the lowest common denominators in Israeli society…they did not represent anyone…and are often callous enough to beat up their own family. They should be reigned in…but where is there true accountability for police anywhere in the world? How about accountability for any officials anywhere? Respect for rule of law anywhere?

Let the hotels pursue their own self interests…they do not need us to do this for them. Teenagers are teenagers by the way…again the hotels can draw their own conclusions.

Anon only strikes a chord because this article is even newsworthy…anon might call it jewsworthy. But he’s right that his responses very quickly elicited a lot of responses that were outright crazy…even on other subjects. Why? He has a point there somewhere that no one should dismiss out of hand. A few poor performances by Jews, a few articles about it, and then a torrent of stereotyping talkbacks.

Let’s focus on the future, on great, peaceful, productive relations.

18 06 2009
Morpheous

I have only one thing to add: http://www.911missinglinks.com

28 07 2009
Wojtek

Please do not come to Poland!

28 07 2009
Wojtek

Wiedza o historii Polski jest zagrożona specyficzną utratą pamięci narodowej z powodu nauczania sowieckiej wersji “historii” przez pół wieku sowieckiej władzy nad Polską. Obecnie “nowa historia Polski” jest formowana pod wpływem jednostronnego programu nauczania o zagładzie Żydów przy zaniedbaniu nauczania równie szczegółowo o procesie eksterminacyjnym, któremu poddany był naród polski w czasie Drugiej Wojny Światowej jak również o krytycznym wkładzie Polaków w zwycięstwo aliantów. Dzisiejsze przedstawianie faktów i wydarzeń wyrwanych z kontekstu często staje się fałszywą propagandą żydowskiego ruchu roszczeniowego.

31 08 2009
Sad

I’m a teenager flying to Poland this year. I totally agree with what is said, we don’t get to see the actual country, or meet the people, which is really annoying because I want to be able to experience the country and meet young poles my age, I wish things were different. The trip consists of getting on a bus and being transported from one concentration camp to another, from museum to graveyards, without being actually able to see Poland and experience it. I really want to meet poles my age and interact with them and make friendships, which is impossible with the current formula of these trips to Poland :(

17 09 2009
Lech Bajan

Kaliningrad and the Shield missiles in Poland

Dr James Gordon Prather makes a surprising statement that USA is “committed to come to Lithuania’s or Poland’s assistance, militarily, if either decided to blockade or absorbs the Province of Kaliningrad of the Russian Federation” (“Regime Change Rationales,” Antiwar.com, July 26, 2008). Dr. Prather usually well informed articles on the Treaty of Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and his criticism on Bush’s policy in the Persian Gulf and on the subject of Bush’s attacks on the “Peace Pipeline” Iran-Pakistan-India-China for natural gas are very logical and usually do not include such a glaring blunder, as the speculation about the possibility of Poland’s decision, to annex the Province of Kaliningrad of the Russian Federation.

One should remember that in the Province of Kaliningrad the Soviets deposited most of their nuclear and rocket arsenal, which they evacuated from East Germany and Poland. The Province of Kaliningrad of the Russian Federation represents today by far greater military strength and fire power than Poland and Lithuania put together.

Charles Reese argues logically in his article written on the same day under title: “Pull the Plug on the War State.” He states that placing “[Bush’s] anti-missile system in the Czech Republic and in Poland… represents a threat to [Russia’s] security… President Bush’s lame excuse that the system is designed to protect Europe from Iranian missiles is no doubt another deliberate lie…It does not make any sense at all,” especially considering that a missile flight time from Poland to Moscow is only about four minutes.

This very fact could be enough justification for Russia to turn moist of Poland into radioactive territory while destroying the missile launching pads in Poland. The threat to turn Poland into nuclear wasteland because of the installation of the Shied is very similar to the NATO plans, for a radioactive barrier between Russia and Western Europe, in case the Soviets would attack NATO with their superior armored forces during the 1970ties. Then the United States planned to turn Poland into a radioactive barrier. This threat frightened Polish colonel Richard Kukliński. Trying to save Poland from disaster the colonel risked his life and transferred to the US intelligence thousands of strategic documents of the Warsaw Pact, in order to prevent the possible destruction of Poland because of a surprise attack on the Western Europe by the Soviet Union.

One should remember that the Soviets rockets in Cuba in 1962 were located twice as far as from Washington in comparison to the distance from Poland to Moscow. Then, the government of the United States did every thing possible, to remove the Soviet threat. Mr. Reese is right when he states, that the project of US missiles in Poland, may revive the Cold War. Poland, in the thinking of the neocons, may be a sacrificial peon on the world chessboard, in a ploy that might give a chance of check-mate Russia in Bush’s nuclear arms race for the world domination. Despite all the anti-Polish propaganda Poles are not suicidal. They know, that they cannot hope for any mercy from the Russians, especially, when Russian control and command centers, would be threatened by the American missiles, located on the Polish soil.

26 12 2009
Lech Bajan

Zakazane Piosenki 2 tak odbydujemy Polske od gor do morza i Polskie Stocznie
INKA – …zachowa 2;am się jak trzeba of Poland

Gdzie są kwiaty z tamtych lat?

26 12 2009
Lech Bajan

7 02 2010
Krzysiek

I live in New York as of now however untill the age of 12 ive been born and raised in Poland (Brzeg near Wroclaw). I am young but i believe that everyone should face the same consequences…. i have flown many times and never in my live i would slap a stewardess in the face its considered as endangering a flight and in normal circumstances the plane would make an emergency landing. In normal circumstances Polish LOT would call police right away. Israeli security or not. If the Israeli kids think of Poles as second class poeple why drag them over here? Poland is a free country however if u dont wanna come here then dont even bother and if u slap a stewardess in mid flight SWAT should be upon the scene right after the landing teenager or not.

1 03 2010
Purim in Poland « Dan's Balagan–Adventures in Poland's Past and Present

[...] in Poland on national television, and that these images could be easily be placed among the gallery of a negative images Poles already have of Jews. But can I really expect anything else from them? They are, after all, [...]

17 03 2010
Sloane

If a society (like the polish) does eveything for money and has a need of being on the “good” side by all means – encounters a society who’s being told by their leaders that they are above everyone else – things come out like this. It’s perfect humiliation, an old story…

Stand up against such collective arrogance – and it won’t happen any longer.

8 06 2010
Radio Maryja from Poland

GERMAN OCCUPATION OF POLAND AND CONTROL OF JEWS

By mid-1941, Germany gained control of all of Poland and the Germans continued the establishment of Jewish ghettos that the Germans had started in 1939. Germans formed the Jewish ghettos by evicting hundreds of thousands of gentiles from their homes and then crowding many more Jewish families there than the space could reasonably accommodate. There were no Jewish ghettos in Poland before Germany started creating them in 1939. It is ironic that some people not well acquainted with the history of the ghettos have mistakenly thought that the ghettos were formed by a bigoted Polish population who spitefully wanted to segregate the Jewish population to selected areas. Instead, the real truth is that Polish people were unwillingly removed from their homes by the Germans to form the ghettos, and then the Polish people illegally aided the Jews by bringing them substantial amounts of food and other supplies.

In terms of living conditions, the ghettos formed by the Germans bore a haunting similarity to the concentration camps that the Germans had been organizing since 1933. The Polish Armed Resistance reported that 500,000 Jews were crowded into the Warsaw Ghetto: 600 people per acre. Hunger, and unspeakably poor hygienic and sanitary conditions resulted in the spreading of tuberculosis and other contagious diseases. The Central Commission for Investigation of Crimes Against Polish People reported: “The isolated ghetto is restricted to internal trade, consisting of people’s private property, clothing, and household goods which are sold at low prices for extremely expensive food … There is no heating fuel in the ghetto … The health and sanitary conditions are beyond description–there is a monstrous hunger and poverty … Overcrowded streets are full of aimless, pale, and starving people … People die in the streets … An orphanage is being overcrowded with daily arrivals of newborn babies … The Germans’ plunder of once-affluent Jews continues … as well as the treatment of Jews in an exceptionally brutal manner …”

Each ghetto had its own Jewish Council [Judenrat] which oversaw day-to-day affairs and a Jewish police force which carried out German orders to supply laborers and, as pointed out by Jewish historians such as Isaiah Trunk and Hannah Arendt, to round up Jews for deportation to death camps. Thus, relatively few Germans were needed for such “Aktions,” or official actions by the German government against the Jewish people. Nor did their success involve any type of cooperation from Polish gentiles. Because the system set up by the Germans did not rely on Polish police, even the opportunity for the Polish police to aid the German roundup of the Jews was marginal or non-existent, as pointed out by Raul Hilberg, the foremost Holocaust historian, in his important work, “Victims, Perpetrators, Bystanders.” Conditions in the Bransk ghetto have been described in Isaiah Trunk’s “Judenrat” (New York: Macmillan, 1972) and in “Bransk: Book of Memories” (New York: Shoulson Press, 1948).

Polish gentiles certainly were not the masterminds who formed the neither ghettos nor collaborators with the Germans on the brutal treatment of the Jews. To the contrary, Polish gentiles sabotaged German plans for the starvation of ghetto inmates. The Polish gentiles made illegal deliveries of food to the ghettos–including about 250 tons of flour per day. Jozef Dabrowski and others were shot by the Germans for making such deliveries. By then the daily food ration in Warsaw was 184 calories for a Jew, 669 for a Polish gentile, and 2,613 for a German. Eighty percent of the food consumed in the ghetto was smuggled in by Polish gentiles. The supply of raw materials into the ghetto was forty times greater than that officially permitted by the Germans, according to the records of the Jewish Council of the Warsaw Ghetto. (I.C. Pogonowski, “Jews in Poland: A Documentary History, pp. 106-107.”)

After Germany’s invasion of Russia, Adolf Hitler verbally ordered the “Final Solution of the Jewish question,” namely the extermination of eleven million European Jews. To work out and communicate the details of implementing the “Final Solution,” the Wannsee Conference was held in Berlin on January 20, 1942. At the conference, the leaders of the German civil service established the specific means by which the genocide was to be conducted. As a direct result of the conference, the Berlin government announced an invitation for bids from German industry to purchase equipment for an industrial process to exterminate eleven million European Jews.

According to plans developed at the Conference, terrorized Jewish personnel were to be used in the extermination process. Also, the plans further directed that the extermination camps were to be isolated from the Polish population for maximum secrecy. For this reason, the camp guards were recruited from Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania and Ukraine. Despite German terror and German attempts to keep Poles in the dark about the Germans’ actions, radio broadcasts made by the Polish resistance regularly informed the West of German atrocities in Poland. (I.C. Pogonowski, “Jews in Poland: A Documentary History, New York: Hippocrene Books Inc., 1993, pp. 110, 119, 120, 121, 124, 125).

Massive deportations from the Warsaw ghetto in the summer of 1942 (to the Treblinka death camp) were not carried out with the assistance of any Polish agency. Indeed, in German-occupied Poland, there was not even a vestige of a Polish government at that time. Instead, the deportations were organized by the Jewish police in coordination with the Judenrat and the occupying German forces. Horrifying descriptions of this Aktion are found in the diaries of Emanuel Ringelblum, the chronicler of the Warsaw ghetto, and elsewhere. These sad events are only a part, but a significant part, of the eventual roundup and execution by the Germans of a large proportion of Poland’s Jews in what later came to be referred to as the Holocaust.

On April 19, 1943, a Jewish uprising began in the Warsaw Ghetto as Germans started the final liquidation of the Jews there. The massacre ended on May 8, 1943. Professor Marian Fuks later wrote: “It is absolutely certain fact that without help and active participation of the Polish resistance movement it would have not been possible at all to bring about the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto.” (“The Bulletin of the Jewish Historical Institute in Poland,” July-December 1989, p. 44).

It should go without saying that the German occupation and brutal control of Poland was not welcomed by the Polish people. Unfortunately, neither could the Polish people find solace in the eventual Soviet re-entry into Poland and their consequent program of brutal control. Upon Soviet re-entry into Poland in 1944, the Soviet terror apparatus was systematically liquidating the remnants of the Polish Home Army and any perceived Polish opponents of a Soviet takeover and control of Poland. It is an undeniable fact that many Jews, usually communist functionaries, were collaborating with the Soviets in denouncing, jailing, and executing Poles. (See for example, “Karta,” no. 15; Oswald Rufeisen’s account in Nechama Tec’s “In the Lion’s Den”; Wanda Lisowska’s 1946 account on conditions in Ejszyszki found in “Zeszyty Historyczne,” no. 36.) Poles suspected of having either collaborated with the Germans or of being anti-Semitic could be, and were, executed with impunity. For example, in Drohiczyn, nine Polish gentiles were murdered by local Jews because they were falsely suspected of killing a Jew, a crime in fact perpetrated by the Soviets (Warszawa: Archiwum Polski Podziemnej, Dokumenty, 1994).
Tens of thousands of Polish gentiles were executed in repressions that affected the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent Polish gentiles. The foregoing are not invented facts: Both Simon Wiesenthal and Stanislaw Krajewski, vice-chairperson of the Polish Council of Christians and Jews, among others, have publicly admitted their shame on this account. Under these types of wartime circumstances, where Jews were successfully encouraged to betray Polish gentiles to the Soviet authorities, animosities toward Jews in the general population were not a matter of anti-Semitism, but simply a matter of survival. Active Jewish collaboration and popular support for Soviet forces invading Poland occurred from the beginning of the War. In the book “Poles, Jew, Socialists–The Failure of an Ideal,” edited by Antony Polonsky, et al. (London: The Littman Library of Jewish Civilization, 1996), Dov Levin writes “The Red Army entered Wilno [Poland] early on the morning of Tuesday, 19 September 1939, to an enthusiastic welcome by Wilno’s Jewish residents, in sharp contrast to the Polish population’s reserve and even hostility. Particular ardor was displayed by leftist groups and their youthful members, who converged on the Red Army tank columns bearing sincere greetings and flowers.”

Despite these enormous obstacles, and the fact that Polish gentiles also were undergoing their own Holocaust which consumed several million victims, hundreds of thousands of Polish gentiles risked their lives to help Jews. In Warsaw alone, before the uprising of 1944, which resulted in its total destruction, some 15,000 Jews were being sheltered. Emanuel Ringelblum estimated that as many as 60,000 out of the city’s 700,000 Christian residents were involved in the rescue efforts. Assistance has been documented at more than 600 Catholic churches, monasteries, convents, and church-run orphanages throughout Poland. Poles form the largest group recognized by Yad Vashem as “Righteous Gentiles,” as many as 40% of all those recognized. Yad Vashem is a Jewish organization devoted to honoring those who saved Jews from the Holocaust.

Just as there were some Jewish collaborators during World War II, small numbers of Polish gentiles also collaborated with the Germans. There is no justification or excuse for their actions, and neither was this conduct condoned or tolerated. With the active support of Polish public opinion, the Polish Underground passed and carried out many death sentences against anyone found collaborating with the Germans. It is regrettably true that collaborators, whether with the Nazis or the Soviets, whether Polish Jews or gentiles, were an effective force to contend with. But at the same time, they were tiny, marginal and unrepresentative groups in their respective communities.

Simon Wiesenthal has advocated the following wise and balanced assessment of that tragic period which consumed millions of Jewish and Polish lives: “Then the war came. It is at times like these that the lower elements in society surface–the blackmailers who would betray Jews … On the other hand, the 30,000 or 40,000 Jews who survived, survived thanks to the help of the Poles. This I know.” During the five years of German occupation most of the efforts to shelter Jews ended tragically for the Jewish victims and their Christian friends.

What do the leading Holocaust historians have to say about alleged Polish complicity in the Holocaust? Yisrael Gutman, director of research at the Yad Vashem Institute in Jerusalem and editor in chief of “The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust” (1990), has stated authoritatively: “All accusations against the Poles that they were responsible for the Final Solution are not even worth mentioning. Secondly, there is no validity at all in the contention that Polish attitudes were the reason for the siting [sic] of the death camps in Poland.” And again: “I want to be unequivocal about this. When it is said that Poles supposedly took part in the extermination of the Jews on the side of the Germans, that is not true. It has no foundation in fact. There was no such thing as Poles taking part in the extermination of the Jewish population.” Professor Gutman stated that the percentage of Poles who collaborated with the Germans was “infinitesimally small.” He said this in a conversation with Polish Ambassador Dowgiallo (Harvey Sarner, “From Science to Diplomacy: A Pole’s Experience in Israel,” Brunswick Press, 1995). Richard Pipes of Harvard University, wrote in the introduction to I.C. Pogonowski’s book, “Jews in Poland,” published on the fiftieth anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: “It must never be mistakenly believed that the Holocaust was perpetrated by the Poles. Nor must it be ignored that three million Poles perished at German hands.” Szymon Datner, longtime director of Warsaw’s Jewish Historical Institute, has been equally blunt: “Poles are not responsible for the crimes of the Holocaust.”

12 06 2010
Andilala

I Am a southeast Asian; If John/Anonymous/mitzvot 563 really are jewish, I could only understand why there are so many Jews persecuted during WW2 or why there are anti-semitism.

12 06 2010
Andilala

And, by the way, why let those Israeli student come to Poland if they behaved like that. The Poles don’t need to feel guilty over a thing that happened 65 years ago, whether it’s true or not. You are entitled to your own country don’t let those Israelis think they can behave whatever they like. Your countrymen should come first.

21 06 2010
Radio Maryja from Poland

from the Polish American Please must see over 400 pages book about Jewish History in Poland pdf for all to see by my 85 years old Prof. Pogonowski who did spend 5 years in the Concentration Camps.
subject: Jews in Poland – A Documentary History
http://www.pogonowski.com/books/Jews_in_Poland/Jews_in_Poland_0301-0432.pdf

14 07 2010
Zdrada Srebrenicy – co wie Karadżić? « Grypa666's Blog

[...] Bajan w komentarzach wkleił artykuł o smarkateli żydowskiej demolującej w Polsce hotele i przeszkadzającej gościom – pewnikiem bodziec dla polskiej [...]

3 07 2011
4 07 2011
Johanna

to John, etc….

two names: Kaganovich and Lenin……first one was leader of soviet deathcamps and invented many tortures, and the latter had his hands bloodied in slavic victims.
inconvenient truth.

4 10 2011
D

Thank you for all your posts, Anon!

I read them all and can only agree to the most.

Many are still blinded by jealousy and other low emotions which they then point at successful people. The Polish are currently one of the best examples of holding on to ignorance and stupidity I saw in my life. I have been living in Poland and can say that the majority of people (with many exceptions, of course) keep being bad-humoured, backward, destructive, jealous and vile to the extreme. This backwardness and primitivity is probably connected to the long-term alcoholism and catholicism. They constantly feel as victims of someone else (Russians, Germans, Jews, family… etc…) instead of looking for solutions and forcefully deny any critique on anything wrong they do instead of learning and progressing.

You described that story of those Jews who were living a long time in Poland and then came very exhausted to the USA. That’s exactly how I felt after 2 years in Poland.

Thankfully, many people in Israel, western Europe, USA and many other countries evolved to a higher level and hopefully will be progressing so the whole humanity can move on to it’s great destiny.

I am optimistic of the future.

All the best to you!

D

16 10 2011
Lech Alex Bajan

Holocaust Profiteering by Literary Hoax

2011-01-25

Holocaust profiteering by literary hoax is widespread. “Holocaust profiteers” is the term originally coined on the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal. The anatomy of “Holocaust profiteering” was made clear by the Reuters Agency when it reported from Buenos Aires, Argentina on Friday, 19, April 1996 (14:50:17 PDT) on a meeting of the World Jewish Congres Rabbi Israel Singer, General Secretary of the World Jewish Congress stated that “More than three million Jews died in Poland and the Polish people are not going to be the heirs of the Polish Jews. We are never going to allow this. (…) They’re gonna hear from us until Poland freezes over again. If Poland does not satisfy Jewish claims it will be “publicly attacked and humiliated” in the international forum.

The Wall Street Journal, Tuesday, February 5, 2002, p. A16, “Bookshelf” published a review accurately entitled “Real Horrors, Phony Claims” It was a review of “A Life In Pieces,” by Blacke Eskin, ( Norton, 251pages $25.95) written by Tom Gross, no relation to J.T. Gross. The title “Real Horrors, Phony Claims” summarizes the essence of Holocaust profiteering by literary hoax which has been practiced by J. T. Gross in his last four books.
http://www.pogonowski.com/?p=2411

16 10 2011
Lech Alex Bajan

Drunk Israeli How the jews treat christians in Israel? The Jews and Arabs were living peacefully for hundreds of years, until the zionists went into Palesting carrying the baggage of European racism and poisoned that harmonious relationship. Now, after creating so much resentment, they use it as an excuse to further oppress the Palestinians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX9Tk2TMA6Q

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18 07 2012
18 07 2012
Polska na zawsze!

I think it be best if Jews NEVER come back to Poland. Poles will never forget their Supremacist, arrogant, money-grubbing ways….The Jews would brake my goy great-grandfather’s store windows because they hated the competition especially from a Gentile…. We will never forget how you treated us….there is a reason why Jews have been expelled over a hundred times throughout history from a plethora of nations… Napoleon, Voltaire, Czar Nicholas, Martin Luther, etc and etc have all been in opposition to the Jewry in way or another….. Israel is the most evil racist state in history. They’re using American soldiers as pawns in their wars against their enemies….. They are behind multiKULTuralism and the massive amount of immigration that we in the West are experiencing. I hope they continue to be swamped the the Ethiopians who are flooding the country en masse as a taste of their own medicine… They seek to destroy us… With their media control, influence in the financial sector…not to mention their powerful lobby in the U.S. government….they’re the most destructive force that we face…. Jews love only themselves….the rest of the world is simply a means of getting anything they want, whenever and wherever…..

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Polónia proíbe abate ritual de animais – judeus protestam veementemente | Portugueses na Polónia

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