Israeli teenagers are a nuisance in Poland
11 05 2007Source: Przekrój weekly of May the 10th 2007
Link to original article in Polish
Author: Anna Szulc
English translation: MoPoPressReview
The list of losses Israeli teenagers’ visits leave behind is long and costly. It begins with burned carpets in Polish hotels, and ends with Jewish teenagers’ trauma. But more and more often with local residents’ trauma too.
Roberto Lucchesini, originally from Tuscany, for several years now a resident of Krakow, hasn’t been sleeping well recently. Before he will be able to move his arms normally again, he will have to go through long rehab. All this because of how he was treated, in broad daylight in front of passers-by and several teenagers who were hermetically closed in their coach-buses. Israeli bodyguards, equipped with firearms, binded his arms behind his back over his head with handcuffs. In Krakow, in the middle of the street. A moment before, the Italian was trying to make coach drivers parking in front of his house turn their engines off. - ‘Israelis handcuffed me, threw me on the ground, my face landed in dog excrement, and then they were kicking me’. After that the perpetrators were gone. Italian had to be freed by the Polish police.
Lucchesini moved to Kazimierz, a district of Kraków, that used to be a Jewish commune of which the only things left now are synagogues and memories, often painful. He found an apartment with a view on the synagogue. - ‘Back then I had thought this was the most beautiful place on Earth’ - he says - ‘after some time I understood that the place is indeed beautiful, but not for its today’s residents’.
Kicking instead of answers
Another resident of Kazimierz, Beata W., office worker, is of similar opinion. Israeli security searched her handbag on one of the streets, without telling her why.
- ‘When I asked what was this all about, they told me to shut up. I listened, I stopped talking, I was afraid they’d tell me to get undressed next’ - she says annoyed.
A young polish Jew, who as usual in Sabbath, went to pray in his synagogue couple months ago, also didn’t get his answer. He only asked, why can’t he enter the temple. Instead of an answer, he got kicked.
- ‘I saw this with my own eyes’ - says Mike Urbaniak, the editor of Forum Of Polish Jews and correspondent of European Jewish Press in Poland. - ‘I saw how my friend is being brutally attacked by security agents from Israel, without any reason.’
All this apparently in sake of Israeli childrens’ safety.
- ‘For Poles it may be difficult to understand, but security agents accompany Israelis at all times, both in Israel and abroad’ - explains Michał Sobelman, a spokesman for Israeli embassy in Poland. - ‘This is a parents’ demand, otherwise they wouldn’t agree for any kind of trip. Poland is no exception.’
But it was in Poland, as Mike Urbaniak reports, where Jews from Israel brutally kicked a Polish Jew in front of a synagogue, and then threatened him with prison. In plain view of the Israeli teenagers.
- ‘We are very sorry when we hear about such incidents’ - Sobelman admits - ‘Detailed analysis is carried out in each case. We will do everything we can, to prevent such situations in the future. Maybe we will have to change training methods of our security agents, so that they would know Poland is not like Israel, that the scale of threats here is insignificant?
Professor Moshe Zimmermann, head of German History Institute at Hebrew University in Jerusalem thinks however, that the problem is not only in the security agents’ behaviour. He thinks Israelis basically think that Poles aren’t equal partners for them. And it’s not only that they think Poles can’t ensure their children’s safety.
- ‘They are not equal partners to any kind of discussion. It applies also to our common history, contemporary history and politics. In result Israeli youth see Poles as second category people, as potential enemies’ - he explains bluntly.
An instruction on conduct with the local inhabitants given away to Israeli teenagers coming to Poland couple years ago may confirm professor’s opinion. It contained such a paragraph: ‘Everywhere we will be surrounded by Poles. We will hate them because of their participation in Holocaust’.
- ‘Agendas of our teenagers’ trips to Poland are set in advance by the Israeli government, and are not flexible’ - says Ilona Dworak-Cousin, the chairwoman of the Polish-Israeli Friendship Association in Israel. - ‘Those trips basically come down to visiting, one by one, the places of extermination of Jews. From that perspective Poland is just a huge Jewish graveyard. And nothing more. Meeting living people, for those who organise these trips, is meaningless.’
A resident of Kraków’s Kazimierz district, who is of Jewish descent, says that there is nothing wrong with that: - ‘Israelis don’t come to Poland for holiday. Their aim is to see the sites of Shoah and listen to the terrifying history of their families, history that often is not told to them by their grandparents, because of its emotional weight. Often young people who are leaving, cry, phone their parents and say “why didn’t you tell me it was that horrible?”. To be frank, I am not surprised they have no interest in talking about Lajkonik‘.
However according to Ilona Dworak-Cousin the lack of contact with Poles, causes Israeli youth to confuse victims with the perpetrators. - ‘They start to think it were the Poles who created concentration camps for Jews, that it is the Polish who were and still are the biggest anti-Semites in the world’ - adds Dworak-Cousin, who is Jewish herself.
The above mentioned Kraków resident has a different opinion. - ‘I don’t believe anyone was telling them that the Poles had been doing this. That’s why there is no need for discussing anything with the Poles’.
Teenagers behaving badly
However, many Israelis say that although the instruction was eventually changed, the attitude to Poles has not changed at all.
- ‘Someone in Israel some day decided, that our children going to Poland have to be hermetically surrounded by security’ - says Lili Haber president of Cracovians Association in Israel. - ‘Someone decided that young Israelis cannot meet young Poles, and cannot walk the streets. Basically these visits aren’t anything else but a several-day-long voluntary prison.’
Voluntary, but also very expensive: 1400 USD per person. Not every Israeli parent can afford such a trip.
- ‘Moreover, as it turns out, the children are too young, to visit sites of mass murders’ - adds dr Ilona Dworak-Cousin. Traumatic experiences that accompany visits in death camps have its consequences. Kids become aggressive. And instead of getting to know the country of their ancestors, in which Jews and Poles lived in symbiosis for over 1000 years, Israeli teenagers cause one scandal after another.
It happens sometimes, that somewhere between Majdanek and Treblinka, young Israelis spend their time on striptease ordered via the hotel telephone. It happens sometimes, that the hotel service has to collect human excrement from hotel beds and washbasins. It happens sometimes, that hotels have to give money back to other tourists, who cannot sleep because Israeli kids decided to play football in hotel corridor. In the middle of the night.
6-year-old Krzys from Kazimierz played football too. On Sunday night on 15th April, after shooting two goals, he wanted to go home, as usual. He lives near a synagogue, in front of which hundreds of young Israelis have gathered on celebrations preceding March of Living. Just before Szeroka street he was stopped by some not-so-nice men. - ‘This is a semi-private area today. There is no entry’ - he was told. It didn’t help, when he told them, his mum will get upset if he won’t be home on time.
Security officers, which is interesting, were Polish this time and accompanied by the Polish police. They also denied access to the area to a Dutch couple, who had reserved a table at one of the restaurants on Szeroka street six months ago. - ‘Is this a free country?’ - One of the tourists tried to make sure.
On a normal day you can access Szeroka street from several sides. That evening from none. I tried to get through myself, without any success. Only eventually, the police helped me to pass the security line.
- ‘There are no official restrictions here’ - they were convincing me a moment later, although the “unofficial practice” was different.
- ‘We have only set certain restrictions in movement’ - Sylvia Bober-Jasnoch, a spokeswoman for Malopolska Region Police press service, explained to me later.
The police cannot say anything else. Polish law does not allow residents to be denied access to the streets they live at. Even during the so called mass events (however the celebrations on Szeroka did not have that status) residents have the right to go back to their homes and tourists have the right to dine in a restaurant. Also Israeli security agents have no right to stop or search passers-by.
I tried to find out more on the rights of Israeli security agents in Poland. First at the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, from where my question was sent to…. the Ministry of Education. I have also sent questions to the Home Office. Although I was promised, I received no answer. Only person eager to talk on that matter was Maciej Kozłowski, former ambassador in Israel, currently the Plenipotentiary of the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Polish-Israeli relations.
- ‘Regulations are imprecise’ - admits Kozłowski. ‘Basically bodyguards from a foreign country should not move around Poland armed. However for the government of Israel security matters are a priority. Any convincing that their citizens should use the services of Polish security turned unsuccessful’.
Airplane like battle field
The Polish-Italian couple, Robert Lucchesini, his wife Anna, and their two-year-old daughter, cannot understand Polish government’s attitude. Which contrary to the Israeli government, is not able to ensure the safety of its citizens. Safety is not the only thing among the pair’s priorities, but also peace and quietness. They are however being woken up every morning by the loud noises of engines, of the Polish coach-buses with groups of Israeli youth. Their Polish drivers brake driving regulations all the time. They’re allowed to park at the square near the synagogue (in front of Robert’s house) only for up to 10 minutes. They stay there much longer, even hours. With their engines turned on. Reason? Youth’s safety - they would be able to leave quicker in case of a threat. And because Israeli kids need to be served coffee. Because even though Kazimierz is full of cafes, Israeli teenagers don’t go there. They are being told: no contacts with environment, no talking to passers-by, no smiles nor gestures.
This has been going for years. Israeli groups contact with Poles only there where they have to. First in airplanes.
- ‘A plane after such group has landed, looks like a battle field’ - admits a worker of LOT Polish Airlines asking for his name not to be published. - ‘The worst thing is these kids’ attitude to Polish staff. Recently a stewardess was slapped by a teenager in her face. Because he had been waiting for his coca-cola too long’.
Leszek Chorzewski, LOT spokesman, admits that Israeli youth is a difficult customer. - ‘They demand not only more attention then other passengers, but also more security precautions’ - he adds. These precautions are long aircraft and airport controls conducted by Israeli services. These are also the high demands of the teenagers’ security agents.
Katarzyna Łazuga, student from Poznań, could see that first hand. She participated in a tourist guides’ training on one of Polish airports. ‘Young people from Israel entered the room we were in’, she recalls. - ‘Our group was then made to stop classes and rushed out of the room. Israeli security officers told us to go out, right now and without any talking. Because… we were “staring” at their clients. Yes, we were looking at them. They were catching attention, they were good looking.’
Young Israelis see Poles also there, where they board - in Polish hotels. If any of them still wants to have them. Most of those in Kraków don’t want to any more.
- ‘We have resigned from admitting Israeli youth once and for all’ - admits Agnieszka Tomczyk, assistant manageress in a chain of hotels called System. ‘We could not afford to refund the loses after their stays any more’.
These loses being: demolished rooms, broken chairs and tables, human excrements in washbasins or trash bins, or like in Astoria, other hotel in Kraków, burned carpet. Astoria also backs out from having Israeli groups. One of the reasons is that the teenagers’ security agents were ordering other guests, whom they didn’t like, to leave.
- ‘I understand that Israeli security agents are over-sensitive to any disturbing signals. They are coming from a country where bombs explode almost daily, and young people die in terrorist attacks’ - ensures Mike Urbaniak. - ‘But Poland is one of the safest countries in Europe. Here, excluding tiny number of incidents, Jews are not being attacked, and Jewish institutions don’t need security, which is very unusual on a world scale’.
Huge business
Chasidim, travelling in great numbers from Israel, also (surprisingly) don’t need security agents. Including for example many Orthodox Jews, who came to visit our country recently, as they wanted to pray at Tzadik of Lelów’s grave. They came to the market square in Kazimierz without any security assistance and without any fear.
- ‘They chatted eagerly with tourists interested in their outfits, with passers-by who don’t see Jews with side curls every day’ - adds Urbaniak.
In Kazimierz chasidim are nothing unusual. Like groups of Israeli teenagers. This year 30,000 Israeli teenagers are coming to Poland, and they will have 800 security agents to protect them.
Roberto Lucchesini reported to the Polish police that he got beaten by Israeli security. Krakow Prosecution Office is investigating the case, and so is its counterpart in Israel.
- ‘Results of this investigation are of medium importance’ - thinks Ilona Dworak-Cousin. - ‘What matters is if the youth that visits Poland, will still treat it as hostile and completely alien country’.
Polish-Israeli Friendship Association in Israel and Cracovians Association in Israel both try to convince the government of their country, not to send any more teenagers to see only the death camps in Poland. Chances are slim.
- ‘These trips are mostly a huge business for people who organise them’ - says Lili Haber - ‘including Israeli bodyguards’.
C O M M E N T S
Szewach Weiss, former speaker of Knesseth, former Israel’s ambassador in Poland:
I have a dream: I would like Israeli youth to come to Poland not only to see death camps, but also to see the life of Polish cities and towns. That they would even stay under one roof with Polish young people, so that after some time Poles would visit them back in Israel, that Poles would be invited and welcomed there. Is that one of those dreams that will never come true? I don’t think so, I believe that it will come true in 5 years at worst. In the meanwhile the most important thing is to change the current form of Israeli teenagers’ trips. A perfect solution would be direct contact between Israeli and Polish schools. That would have given a real chance to talk, exchange ideas, or even have an argument. I would however like the Poles to understand our difficult position, how deep is in us that idea that our children could lose their lives, even in a country as peaceful as yours. Of course that does not give anyone right to brutal behaviour towards Poles. Aggression is aggression, regardless of circumstances.
Yuli Amir, Israel’s Education Minister:
I think that Israeli youth doesn’t think good or bad about Poland or Poles. These trips are more about them, their Jewish identity. This is such Jewish feeling, that the whole world was against us, and Poland was on the wrong side too. You have to remember, that for many years Israeli youth has been rejecting Holocaust. For them it was a specimen, of how not to act. “Why did we go like sheep for death?”Holocaust was that weakness, they didn’t want to identify with. By coming to Auschwitz they have started to treat the victims of Shoah differently. This is a moral rehabilitation of Jewish past. of course we are aware of imperfections of the visits programme, we are considering changes. We discuss a lot, we think what influence these trips have on youth, on education. But all changes need time.
Mike Urbaniak, editor of Forum Of Polish Jews and correspondent of European Jewish Press in Poland:
I have met many Israelis in my life. Most of them are great, cheerful and exceptionally open people. They don’t have superiority complex. Everyone, who has at least once been in Israel has to admit that. In Poland however their image is getting worse and worse. And this will continue, if those trips will still look like a visit in countryside museum. This is a problem that needs to be solved in Israel as soon as possible.
* * *
See also » Young Israelis in Poland - continued
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If you enjoyed this post why not visit Polandian, a collaborative blog on Poland.
What do they Poles expect that the current Jews act like their grandparents did in Poland when the Poles could round them up and send them to be gassed? The Jedwabne Jews are gone. The Jews will never again allow the Poles to kill Jews. It seems that some Poles of today are longing for the days of an obedient, freightened Jew of yesterday when their greatgrandparents and grandparents could easily kill the Jews with total impunity. There was a good reason the Hitlerites picked Poland to exterminate the European Jewry. Poland has always been hateful of Jews.
In September 2001 when my son was in highschool he had a choice of a group trip to Poland or Germany. The trip to Germany was cheaper because it required less security. Thus, I was afraid to allow him to go to Poland. The teenagers of Arad, Israel were hosted by the teenagers of Dinslaken, Germany. Both sides were properly prepared for the visit. Together they attended classes, learned about the past, visited a concentration camp together and socialized together.Many close friendship were formed from this trip. In 2004 I relunctantly attended an animal welfare conference in Warsaw. I did not wish to visit “the Jewish graveyard” but my boss a famous writer (who recently wrote an international bestseller about his Polish ancestors) with extensive Polish contacts said to me that Israelis drive around in Volkswagons, take trips to Germany while at the same time are more prejudiced against Poland. He went on to explain that more Poles risked their lives and families to save Jews than any other nation and that I needed to go. I did go, even though I was afraid at first, once there I felt perfectly safe. My boss’s Polish friends helped me enormously in search of my family’s history. The Polish-Israeli Friendship Society hosted a meeting for the Cat Welfare Society of Israel. It was all an amazing experince. I have been back to Poland since and am planning a visit with my children this summer.
The Israeli Ministry of Education needs to immediately change its attitude regarding the school trips. The Arad-Dinslaken program should be the only model. If Israeli kids can socialize with Germans why should’t they socialize with Poles. This needs to be properly prepared by sensitive open minded Holocaust educators. The teachers need to be retrained for this and those who are emotionally unable to do so should be replaced with opened mind teachers whose goal is to promote dialog and understanding. This for the long term welfare and benefit of everyone involved: Poles, Jews, Germans and others.
I give my permission to the publisher of this site to give my email to anyone who might want to correspond with me. I would like to thank the Polish-Israeli Friendship Society and the wonderful friends of the famous writer who I am sure will recognize who he and they are from what I wrote.
One point I forgot to add regarding the behavior of the Israeli students. Although such vandalism is truly reprehensible it is not behavior reserved just for Poland. The Israeli youth tend to be undisciplined and unruly due to a very lax discipline in the the schools, lax parenting and lack of adult supervision in general. Ask Israeli hotels that host such groups of teenagers for their yearly outings you will find many of the same complaints. It is no excuse and the Ministry of Education and Foreign Ministries are to blame for not insuring that students are properly supervised at least when abroad as they are our representatives to the world.
“Israeli Youth from Ramat Hanegev Meets Polish Youth in Plonsk,…” - File
http://yad-vashem.org.il/education/conference2004/Rosenblum,%20Itzhak%20-%20Israeli%20%20Youth%20from%20Ramat%20Hanegev%20Meets%20Polish%20Youth%20in%20Plonsk.pdf
or
http://tinyurl.com/v88kh
#2 Get over it. The Jewish teens behave like the teens should behave. When they see the death camps they feel the pain of their, humiliated, abused and finally slaughtered brethren. They react to it in a normal fashion. What do you want to create the Jewish robots? Granted, it upsets some Poles but regardless what the Jews do or don’t do would upset them anyway. To Poles the zhids will always be arrogant, tricky, exclusive, deceitful or pompous. The Poles want to have a dialogue not because they feel for the Jews or Jewish suffering but because it would make them feel better. They want to send the message that they were not that evil but suffered too. Yeah, right! Why don’t they tell that to the Jews of Kielce? The fact of the matter is the Poles committed the brutal pogroms against the Jews right after WW2 with no Germans present at the site. Nobody instructed or forced him or her to commit the hateful, anti-Jewish, criminal acts.
Well, let them rejoice. The Polish landscape was ethnically cleansed out of the Jews and those who escaped the death in Poland built America and Israel. They brought the honor, knowledge; modernity to their new homelands while Poland remained wallowing in misery and backwardness for another 2 generations. They murdered or chased out the greatest talent Poland would ever encounter. Had Poland been less hateful of its Jewish citizens it could become at least as advanced as the US or Israel.
These days the Catholic Church that greatly influenced the Jewish tragedy in Poland is showing its kinder side toward the Jews not because it stopped hating the Jews but because it feels the heat being challenged by 2 much greater forces - secularism and Islam. Therefore, all of a sudden, we are not the “Jesus killers” any longer but have become the “elder brothers”. This is the Jewish reality. The Jews have to suffer while they evolve, learn the new values, acquire civility or knowledge.
john…i feel sorry for you….good luck to ya!
John, you are only making a strained situation worse.
I have no idea who you are.
My guess is that you are in actuality an anti-Semite of God-knows-what-nationality who just wants to stir up hatred.
There is no excusing what *some* Poles did to Jews before, during, and after WWII. There is no excusing what *some* Israeli teens and security agents are doing in Poland today.
John, what is your proposed solution to ending whatever enmity exists between Poles and Jews? It sounds like you would simply like to bomb Poland.
Ken, I feel sorry for you too.
Goose. you are funny. Why do you need to know who I am? What is sickening about your kind is that you have come up with a moral equivalency between the Polish atrocities against the Jews and a normal teenage reaction to the crimes committed against the Jews on the Polish soil.
No, I don’t wish Poland any harm. It is just there and I am neutral to that land. If it is lifted up and send to the Moon it is not my problem and if it becomes a prosperous entity it is fine too. Either way I don’t wish it anything. I look at Poland as I look at Madagascar which happens to be somewhere there. Had I had to pick between Poland and Madagascar I would have picked Madagascar. It has beautiful beaches and the climate is much nicer than in Poland. My interest in the debate was sparked by the accusation of the Israeli teenages.
Jews are news! Whatever the Jews do or don’t do is newsworthy to this world. How many people in Europe know the names of the Indian or Chinese prime ministers? Yet, most know the leaders of Israel.
The 3rd press contingent in the world is stationed in Israel. It is not in Beijing , London or Delhi but in a tiny land of Israel. It does not get any sicker than that. When the Prime Minister of Israel farts the world picks it up as a story and the Jews get judged. Yet, when the Arabs fire the missiles from Gaza into Israel the reporters don’t get excited as it is not newsworthy for them. They only report it when the Jews get involved and retaliate. Why? Because the new organizations are private entities interested in making a profit. The Jews arouse emotions. The emotions increase the ratings and ulminatedly higher advertising costs. The reporters know what their readership/viewership is like - it is anti-Semitic.
That is why we are discussing this non-issue. Poland is a Jewish graveyard. The pain is still acute as only 65 years have passed. We are not like the European Christians who were exterminatng the living Jews in the morning and were asking for forgiveness from the only Jew they loved in the evening. The fact of the matter is the only 2 pogroms perpetrated in Europe against the Jews after the WW2 happened in Poland.
I am a Catholic Pole, and my late grandfather’s two brothers were hanged by the German Nazis for resisting the occupation. I resent John’s ignorant comments. Poland lost 6 million citizens during WWII, 3 million of which were of Catholic faith, while the other 3 million were Jewish. Both the Catholic Poles and the Polish Jews resisted the Germans as best we could. The Jews fought in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in 1943, while the Catholic Poles fought in the Warsaw Uprising in 1944. Cases of collaboration by the Catholic Poles were few and far between. It must be remembered that Poland was the first country to stand up to Hitler and say no to his territiorial demands in 1939.
John, you are over-sensitive. This situation has been going for sometime, and no one ever decided to write anything about it until just now.
There is no point in accusing everyone of anti-Semitism. You’re acting like ‘the only gay in the village’ character. You actively seek anti-Semitism, you see it everywhere. Even in the freezer. Ease down.
This article is not about the political situation of Israel. And there is no need to look for conspiracy theories here, the sort of “the whole world vs Israel”. There are many good exchange programmes in Europe, and I see no reason why Israel-Poland couldn’t indulge in one of them
[...] - article continues 31 05 2007 Please note: this article is contunation of matters raised H E R E (click). It is advised to read the former [...]
John, your diatribe is bound to be offensive to any normal human being. Have you considered therapy or, at least, anger management? Drop the bunker mentality when you venture outside your hood (even into the cyberspace) and, most importantly, stay on topic. You wrote such a protracted essay (must have taken you at least an hour) but there is no focal point to it. It is an unhealthy mix of anti-Polish sentiment and intellectual dishonesty (or stupidity, take your pick) – you even managed to squeeze in farting politicians. It is true that teens acting out are hardly newsworthy, but from what I understand these kids come to Poland in some sort of official capacity (that’s how they justify bringing over the armed bodyguards - BTW, why on Earth they think they need them in Poland is beyond me). So the trip is hardly an alternative to a spring break in Cancun, right? You write: “To Poles the zhids will always be arrogant, tricky, exclusive, deceitful or pompous” - do you honestly think the piece your spewed up will help to change the views allegedly held by the Poles, or will they be tempted to replace “or” with “and” just to make your statement a bit more accurate? Somehow I know the answer…
Perhaps the Poles should read this. Apparently, there is a glimmer of hope in that continent that exported death, hatred and destruction.
http://usawakeup.org/europeanlife.htm
nemeczek, the very fact that the Jews live on is offensive to your infected kind.
blazej, when you lose 99.9999% of your people in a graveyard like Poland please come back to tell us how it feels but please do not be too sensitive.
How nice of you, Tom, to elevate the Jews to your Polish level of bravery. Thank you very much. So, Tom, what happened in Kielce and Jedwabne? Was any German or a Russian instructing the nice Polish Catholics how to commit murder?
hey Anonymous (or John as this is the same person), at least hold your personal attacks and don’t insult other readers please! “your infected kind”? what kind of language is this?
John/anon or whomever:
You immediately assumed I was drawing an equivalency. Not so. However, I was indeed condemning atrocities and what you weirdly think are “normal” teenage Jewish reactions. Two different things. You drew the equivalency. Nonetheless, so *you* still defacate on beds in hotels? Do you think that is “normal”?
You lost 99.9999>% of “your people” in Poland? Are you speaking of your family? Obviously, you cannot be talking of all Jews or even Polish Jews although the percentage was trajically high.
And I am glad that you do not care if Poland exists or not. Too bad that so many people feel the same way about Israel.
Well I am not indifferent on the fate of Israel. It has to be acknowledged that they have made it to build from scratch a very strong and prosperous democratic state. I hope things will settle down in the Middle East, and Israelis and Palestinians will come out with some political solution that will satisfy both sides to the greatest extent and bring life free of fear of terrorists attacks to Israelis and peace to Palestinians. I would also wish Palestinians some better leadership, as the economical and mental difference between these two territories couldn’t be more apparent.
This is probably wishful thinking as there are too many people spreading hate, using the difficult issues, seeking conspiracy, and work very hard to make the things worse. Some of them possibly making personal profits from it.
I also think some fundamental change is also needed in popular understanding of Islam among Muslims themselves. I recently read a very interesting book by Irshad Manji, Canadian born muslim woman. She analysed the state of Arab world from a historical perspective and proposed some solutions. Unfortunately right now, completely opposite way of thinking are becoming increasing popular in the Arab world. They, like John, have the feeling that the whole world is against them.
BTW, John/anon…
The article from that link you posted was racist, intolerant drivel.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
John a.k.a. Anonymous, have you actually read the article or just its title? Your heatred is really out of place, not because it’s offesive to others but because it allows your inner uggliness to surface.
Read this:
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/common_knowledge/v008/8.3michnik.html
I know, it is well beyond the level of discourse you are used to, but I am convinced you will manage to grasp it, at least in part.
nemeczek, this article looks interesting - it seems only an excerpt is available without logging to the site.. can you give us login and password?
or, alternatively, do you know its Polish title? Since it’s Adam Michnik’s it’s probably available in Polish in Gazeta Wyborcza internet-archive…
Blazej, unfortunately I do not have access to the whole thing (I found it via Google). I was actually looking for a lecture by Michnik on reasons why Polish Jews (and their descendants) not living in Poland feel so much resentment towards modern-day Poland and its inhabitants. Michnik was trying to explain why the Poles (but, oddly enough, not Germans or Russians) stir up so many negative emotions in Jewish folks around the globe. Michnik’s thesis is that everything boils down to unrequited love (sic!) – the country that had given them shelter, the country their considered their home, the country they loved, rejected them wholesale and never looked back. Anyway, if I find the link to the lecture, I’ll post it here.
ohh…goose…do I have to teach your kind the facts? There were 3M Jews in Poland. 3K survived. Can you please do the math? As for defacating the sheets, it is nothing more than the stress-induced diarrhea. It is not surprising that the kids had it especially after what they saw. After all they were in Auschwtiz, Poland. Have you also taken into the account the Polish cuisine?
goose, what facts in the article do you disagree with and please lets not get personal? We are not communicating to love or like each other. The only requirement we have is to be civil.
blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz, there never be peace between the Jews and Arabs. This conflict is of epical proportions. The Arabs own 99.9% of the Middle Eastern landmass much of which is floating on oil. They have 22 brutal, dictatorial regimes based on corruption, internal terror in the form of secret police agencies, discrimination of every kind imaginable and in some parts even slavery. However, 70% of the UNGA resolutions are directed against Israel, an island of liberalism, gay-pride parades, transparency and democratic institutions. Israel is 9-miles wide in its narrowest point. 20% of Israel is Arab. 10 Arabs serve in the Israeli parliament while there are practically no Jews left in most Arab states let alone representing a constituency in any Arab forum. So, the Jews in Israel barely own 80% of the 0.1% of the Middle Eastern landmass, which by the way is oil-free. The prime real estate in Israel is owned by the Greek Orthodox Church which is mostly Arab. The land on which the Israeli parliament building and the PM residence sit are leased from the Greek Orthodox Church. The Palestinian Arab or Greater Arab - Israeli Jewish conflict is not about the land. It is about the wounded Arab pride. Take a look at Israel and the Arab states. Israel is modern, successful, industrious while the Arab states are dictatorial, backward or terrorist. There is a lot of resentment in the Arab world toward the Arab regimes that could not deliver the extermination of Israel and the 1M jews who were expelled from most Arab countries. Does it sound familiar to you? The Jews were resented in Poland too. The Jewish graveyard in Auschwitz is the direct result of the Polish, German, European hatred of Jews. Most Jews in Eastern Europe or the pale of settlement were precluded from the land ownership and they were still hated. The only positive outcome of the European anti-Semtiism is that it helped advance America and Israel. You kicked out the talent that moves the Wall Street and produces the Hollywood movies you love to watch so much. Barbara Streisand, Harrison Ford, Menachem Begin, Roman Polanski could have advanced the Eastern Europe but instead have been advancing America, Israel or France.
nemeczek, please leave you emotional outbursts for you wife, husband or psychiatrist.
polishpress, thanks for revealing the anonymous identity. By the way, defining an anti-Semite as an infected kind is very, very mild.
Would anyone tell me how many Germans, Russians or Aborigines forced the innocent Poles to burn the Jews in Jedwabne?
blazej, here it goes (in Polish only)
http://www.dialog.org/dialog_pl/michn01.html
John, another long essay, another wasted hour… Do you actually consider this nonsense therapeutic? It is a compilation of slogans from propaganda booklets w/o a scintilla of original or independent thought. You need to read the article first; otherwise you will keep on drifting further and further away from the topic. Rambling about Arabs… What next? Eskimos?
Anonymous John, I repeat, you have intentionally offended nemeczek saying that specifically “his kind” is “infected”. Your intentions were clear.
You were not talking about anti-Semites. You were specifically talking about nemeczek. Unless you imply he is one, which would be another offence.
In Poland, from which this blog is edited, insulting and using offensive language against somebody by the means of mass communication is forbidden by law. Therefore I urge you not to lose your temper in the heat of debate and to mind your language.
The polish press, for your information, anti-Semitism is a viral condition and those who have that condition are infected. Why don’t you sue Itzhak Shamir, the former Israeli PM, who happens to be still alive. He was born in Poland, and is obviously well aware of his Polish compatriots. “Poles suckle anti-Semitism with their mothers’ milk.”
So, back to the facts how many Bengalis, Pushtuns or Germans have forced the Poles to burn the Jews in Jedwabne?
In answer to John’s question, I have no idea what forced a handful of Poles to burn the Jews in Jedwabne. I have no idea either what forced Baruch Goldstein to massacre civilians in the Cave of Patriarchs in 1994. I have no idea why the Israeli government gave shelter to Salomon Morel, a genocidal maniac. I have no idea why Julius and Ethel Rosenberg and Jonathan Pollard spied on the United States. I have no idea why Yigal Amir assassinated Yitzhak Rabin. I do know that making generalizations on basis of what some individuals do is wrong.
nemeczek, I have read the article you have provided link to. I find it very interesting, and I’m considering translating it for this blog. I am very much surprised with how much attention that article about Israeli youth received. It seems clear to me that there is a big need for a Polish-Jewish debate, and that there is still a lot to do for the reconciliation process.
Anonymous John, once again I remind you you were talking about nemeczek and “his kind” not about anti-Semites. As for anti-Semitism I can only agree that this is viral like any other kind of racism. Anti-Polonism, anti-Germanism, anti-Britishism, anti-Arabism etc.
When 99.999% of Poles get exterminated on the Jewish soil please come back here to talk to me about anti-Polonism. Even if only 10% and not 70% of UNGA resolutions are directed against Poland I would be happy to discuss the anti-Polonism with you. If the Poles are rounded up by the Jews and set on fire the way the Jews were set on fire in your native Poland by none other than the Poles I would also be glad to discuss anti-Polonism with you.
However, until that time arrives, there is no use in that topic as it has no value whatsoever.
John, anon:
You ask not to “get personal” and yet you have referred to “your kind” and “your infected kind”.
As to numbers and percentages… Lucy Davidowicz, the Jewish scholar who is purported to have done in Norman Davies’s case for tenure, claims that there were 3,300,000 Jews in pre-war Poland with 300,000 survivors immediately thereafter That’s 90%.
So your history and math needs a corrective.
Do you realize that Poland was an occupied country?
Yes, it is true that many Jews left and some were killed after WWII. And I will not condone or dismiss that.
But consider, too, the other victims of Nazi concentration camps (not just the number of total victims of the Nazis):
Soviet POWs 2–3 million
Politicals 1–1.5 million
Serbs 600,000
Poles 200,000+
Roma 220,000–500,000
Freemasons 80,000–200,000
Disabled 75,000-250,000
Spanish POWs 7,000-16,000
Gay men 5,000-15,000
JWitnesses 2,500-5,000
Please do the cumulative math.
And again, the article you hyperlinked shows that you degrade the humanity of Poles, Jews, and God knows what other peoples.
And my guess is that only an rabid American racist would refer to such an American website.
Again, it still seems you want to foment hatred, not bring about it’s amoelioration and cessation. So piss off and defacate in your own bed for a change.
Polishpress, I am glad you liked the link I provided. I also found Michnik’s opinions interesting – in my view, he is spot on in his analysis. Before you go on and translate this, though, I would ensure it has not been done already. At the bottom of the page, it says ‘wersja angielska’ but the sub-link leads nowhere.
As far as the Polish-Jewish dialog is concerned, I personally do not see it going anywhere. The discussions might be passionate (as you can see even on this website), but not constructive. As Michnik says, we simply remember the very same things differently. Having said that, I do not think there is any need to prevent John/anonymous or whatever alias he is currently using to freely express his opinions. Short of any direct threats, written words affect me as much as a wolf’s howling affects the Moon. Keep up the good work.
I would like to focus on this:
“Poland is for many Israelis, especially the older generation, emotions, it is the Holocaust, but also the after-war memories, not always good. These people are the grandparents of the teenagers who come to Poland. They are in a way programmed by their families. When during social meetings I tell them that Poles and Jews have lived here for many centuries, that Poles were the victims of war just like Jews, young Israelis look at me surprised. And they add, that until now they have known another story.” (David Peleg, Ambassador of Israel in Poland).
It means exactly that most of Jews do not know the history. They just know some old-fashioned Zionist’s propaganda.
During WW2 there were 6 milions of Polish citizens killed. 3 mln of them were Poles and 3 mln. Jews. If (as Zionist propaganda say) this is only a result of Polish hate against Jews and no Germans were involved than it means that 3 mln of Poles commited a suicide in that time. Stupid, don’t you think?
Israeli people… please LEARN a real history and facts.
hehe…you people are funny…you will never grasp the extend of the Holocaust tragedy. Never! You cannot!
Yes, the Jews used to live in Poland but the 99.9% of Polish Jews married the Jews. They maintained their own culture, religion and traditions. They did not really mix in with the local Polish population and that created the animosity toward them. The Catholic Poles did not appreciate the Jewish rejection of the only Jew they loved. Plus, as you know, all Jews are rich. They are some trees that grow gold and only the Jews know how to harvest them. That is why we are so wealthy. Everything is given to us on a silver or golden platter. The Jewish success has always been one of the reasons why the people hate Jews. There are practically NO Jews left in Poland. However, according to the polls the general Polish population thinks that the Jews have too much power in the Polish government. That is how it was in Spain, Britain, Tunis, France, etc. where the Jews were either murdered or expelled.
50 years ago the Arabs were poor and the Jews were poor but these days Israel is modern and successful and the Israeli standard of living is higher or equal to the one in Spain. These days the Jews are relatively rich. In fact, the Israeli per capita income is greater than the per capita income of all Israeli neighbors combined. In other words, the Arabs are still poor. So, the Arabs want a good part of Israel. In fact, they want more than just a part of it. They want Jerusalem and they also want to replace Israel with another Arab state where the Jewish doctors and educators can serve their needs and advance their interests while they will procreate, eat hummus, play backgammon and socialize. They are very intelligent. It is the Jews who are stupid.
Your ancestors have devoted the most beautiful buildings in the world to one Jew who forgives you your vile acts and makes you feel better even when you commit murder, rape or rob. Your excuses are not only foolish but sickening but you have a Jew who loves and cherishes you and he always ready to help you out in the process.
History is full of bloody wars. In fact, Europe is drenched with human blood. After all, it is continent where everybody hated everybody. However, by bringing in excuses of this or that suffering you don’t get uniqueness of Holocaust. Never before the mass deportations and the killing process was done via a corporate structure where there were engineers, managers, bookkeepers, drivers, etc. - everybody they needed to annihilate the people who were vehemently hated.
What bugs you the most that we have not forgotten our tragedy thereby reminding you who your ancestors were. Some of you think that they made the greatest discovery. All of a sudden they found humanity and that brings them to the Jewish level. After all, the Jews are not treating the Palestinian Arabs sufficiently well. So, it makes us the alike. Some of you even know a few good Jews that you are friendly with. Where did your humanists learn humanity? Who taught it to you?
It must have been the Zoroastrians!
[...] from the blog’s editor: I decided to translate this text after having read comments posted to THIS (click) article. I would like to thank Nemeczek. All texts on this website, apart from this one, are [...]
You (Anonymous (00:33:53)) are suffering from hate. Your own hate against Poles. I think it is better for you to start to cure this mental illness. Remember that usualy mentaly ill people can’t see their problem by themselves. They must be told about it and be convinced to start curation.
Best regards to all Poles, Jews and whole good people over the world.
The Polish press, you poor thing got very excited. To be honest it is a dumb piece. I would gladly swap the Jewish suffering for the Polish one. Also, how many Poles were rounded up by Jews and burned alive? Have the Jews ever murdered the Poles the way the Poles murdered the Jews? You people must look in the mirror and face your history. You, the sad creatures, cannot address the Jedwabne and Kielce pogroms because your cannot justify it and blame somebody else. You want to create an impression that you were better than the truth suggests.
Why don’t you try to read the Israeli press? The Jews beat themselves up as nobody else. There are no secrets in Israel. Unlike you the Jews constantly evaluate and re-evaluate all historical facts and everything is out in the open. Also, unlike you, the Jews are not afraid to face reality regardless how harsh it is. You, on the other hand, want to come across a lot better than you actually are. It took over 50 years for the Jedwabne tragedy to come out in the open. Why? Because you hid it. Had it not been for one Polish Jew it would have never been exposed.
By the way, speaking of defacation, which obviously concerns you a great deal I ate at the most exclusive Warsaw restaurants and can state affirmatively that the Polish cuisine sucks big time. It is rudimentary, backward and can be very fattening. Therefore, it is easy to get a bad bout of diarrhea in Poland. Some day when you can afford it you will bring in the good chefs from China, Japan, India, Mexico, the USA, etc. Hopefully, they will teach you a few cooking tricks.
There are two countries where the food is exceptional 1) Thailand 2) Israel.
Hey, Anonymous, can you explain why some prominent Jews collaborated with the Nazis during World War II? Can you explain why Lohamei Herut Israel representative Naftali Lubenchik met with the Nazi official Werner Otto von Hentig in 1940? Wasn’t Lubenchik there to propose cooperation between the Zionists and Nazi Germany? Can you explain why some of those who collaborated with the Nazis to combat the British in Palestine later became Prime Ministers of Israel? Such as Yitzhak Shamir, who was a member of the aforementioned Lohamei Herut Israel? You keem complaining how the Poles did not protect the Jews from the Nazis. How about complaining how some Jews aided and abetted the Nazis?
John, anon:
Are you really so ignorant that you don’t even know Michnik is a Jew?
Of course, Jews suffered because of some Poles. And Jews suffered disproportionately over the course of WWII. But you completely forget the Nazis ever existed.
It is absolutely amazing that you think Jews hold sole exclusive rights to historical suffering. And even more amazing that some people buy into such nonsense.
Norman Finkelstein, the son of Holocaust survivors, is the necessary corrective to such ridiculousness:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7985100635045440998&q=doha+debates+lobby
And guess what, even liberals in the US are getting fed up with Israeli intransigence and warmongering.
Thanks nemeczek for the link, Michnik’s lecture is interesting indeed. And if what the Israel ambassador says is true, then it is a bit frightening. How could it be then, that the next Israeli generations get the historical facts so fragmented and cut-off from the reality of that time, filtered and then put together again, that they think only Jews were Hitler’s target?
I agree that the debate doesn’t go anywhere, and it’s a pity, since we have insitutions like Gazeta Wyborcza, and Adam Michnik.
As it usually is Commisions of historians can debate and come out with joint conclusions, but things like that never brake through to mainstream media and public opinion.
Michnik’s lecture should be on the obligatory curriculum both in Poland and Israel. And USA I suppose, when I see what that John character says.
This is our fault too, unfortunately: we have let the anti-Semitism in the free Poland exist, not fighting enough things like Radio Maryja. And I think I have heard more about celebrations at the the Polish 9/11 victims’ monument in Kielce, than about celebrations remembering the victims of Kielce Pogrom. Things like these only help false opinions, like those of John and his Polonophobia, spread.
hehe…you people are funny. I was waiting for your kind to bring up some Jew or a few Jews who are hateful of all other Jews. The Jews have always had some Jews who go against the Jewish grain. Normally, they are picked up by the anti-Semites as the good Jews. Such Jews is the main justification or excuse to hate the majority of Jews. You have always loved them. That is why such Jews become famous among you. The press gladly picks them up. The recent boycott of Israel by the British educators was instigated by a few Israeli Jews. The International Solidarity Movement, an ugly, pro-Palestinian Arab organization known for it communication with a provocative anti-Israel element, was also founded by a Jew. Finkelstein or Chomsky are also such Jews. That is why you love them. Yossi Beilin, another trashy Jew. has no or very little following in israel. Yet, he is admired and accepted in most European capitals. That is how the anti-Semites excuse their hatred of Jews. They bring in their Jews.
Eventually, such Jews die with history. The Jews who live on in our minds and souls are the Jews that we, the majority of Jews, love and admire, the Jews that we remember and the Jews who helped the Jewish nationhood. So, go on quoting the Finkelstein types and the rest of them. It shows who you are. We have survived without the real estate because unlike you we know who we are. We have survived despite all odds because we have never lost our roots be that Poland, Iraq, Russia or Morocco.
Would you pick up Jesus or would he become your savior if he agreed with the majority of Jews?
“Trashy Jew.” You made up this one, don’t blame it on the anti-Semites, Anonymous.
Yossi Beilin is definitely a trashy Jew. He is your type of a Jew. That is he is admired and liked by your kind.
Yossi Beilin, Finkelstein, Chomsky or anyone like them forget that in Auschwitz the “good” Jews like them were not spared. The only reason Finkelstein can be critical of other Jews is because his parents survived. They were simply lucky. Therefore, he spews their venom at other Jews. Also, because they were born in israel or the US rather than Russia, Poland or Syria they enjoy not only freedom but also full impunity.
So, can anyone of you address the question, would you pick up Jesus or would he become your savior if he agreed or went along with the majority of Jews?
Finkelstein and other Jews who have criticised Israel’s warmongering have full impunity? You are living in a dreamworld. They have been roundly criticized and their chance of tenure threatened or destroyed by other Jews led by the likes of Alan (defender of OJ Simpson) Dershowitz.
Also why should I or anybody care what a majority of Jews think as if only the opinion of Jews matters?
And I’ve never heard the argument advanced by any other Zionist that Jews can survive without “real estate.”
But as an American, and such an altruist, maybe you can convince your government to give up Alaska and let the Palestinians have their “real estate.”
So, Anonymous, getting to the point of the press article, would’t you agree that a lot of those “Israeli teenagers being a nuisance in Poland” are in fact “trashy Jews”?
Blazej, one should only try to change things that can be changed. Besides, it does not really matter what others think of you, if you do not have any interaction with them. We Poles have own historical memory, our own heroism, and our own victims and, first and foremost, we should remember and honor them. Because if we don’t, nobody else will. If anything, they will (figuratively speaking) gladly piss on their graves.
It is true that Radio Maryja and some of our ‘politicians’ are mildly anti-Jewish, but let them be, because the last thing I would like to see in our country is restrictions on free speech. Talking rubbish is not, and should not be, illegal. I learned a long time ago that people who shout the loudest are usually not right. They mistakenly believe that decibels add more weight to their argument. Having said that, t is still educational/entertaining to listen to them.
BTW, I found this website via beatroot’s blog (you know, the Tinky-Winky affair) and, I must say, your entire crew are doing a very good job.
Hornet. once again, the Israeli teenages react to stress and your glorious Polish cuisine. Either one can induce a digestive condition and, by the way, your kind has always viewed the living Jews as something of a nuisance at best and the Jesus killers at worst.
Goose, 60 years ago the Jews were abused. laughed at and murdered on your Polish soil. They had nothing but a very strong belief in the Torah and look where the Jews are today. There is a strip of land. One of the best armies in the world, nuclear capability, first class health-care system, first-class universities, the democratic institutions, a revived language, a good standard of living, agriculture, etc. 100 Israeli companies are listed on the New York exchanges: NASDAQ, NY and American. The Jews have come a long, long way despite terrorism, wars, the European hatred, economic boycotts, etc. When I was in Poland I ran into a group of American Jews with Polish roots. They were older but despite the time they spent in America experiencing the good life they still had the Polish imprint of suffering on their faces. They were quiet, reflecting and polite. The new Israeli Jewish generation is different. Today the Israeli girls are gorgeous and the guys are strong. They walk with pride with their heads up rather than down. Obviously, that what bothers your kind the most. Your would gladly see the same timid, short and insecure Polish Jew, the type of a helpless Jew your compatriots burned in barns or exterminated in camps.
“Also why should I or anybody care what a majority of Jews think as if only the opinion of Jews matters?”
Hehe…that was a very revealing statement of yours. Of course, you don’t care what the majority of Jews think. Your kind only loves and appreciates a small number of highly critical, anti-Jewish Jews. That is what matters to you.
So, would you dedicate your beautiful cathedrals to a Jew who was not critical of other Jews?
Omg, John/anonymous you’re incredible. So a “trashy Jew” is Jew that has a different opinion than you?
If stupidity had wings, you’d fly in the skies like a dove.
Do you know anything about the life of Jews in pre-war Poland? Where people here lived there normal lives, Poles and Jews and neighbours, and everyone was happy. If Poles were such Jew-hates why on earth here was the largest Jewish commmunity in Europe? If anyone hates anyone here, it is you hating Poles and Poland. And Europe. And Arabs. Through this hate you filter information that reaches you, but nothing explains your lack of basic knowledge. You keep talking about how Jews are great now, why don’t you read some things how Jewish culture used to flourish in Poland before the war. But wouldn’t match your anti-Polonic prejudice, would it?
I saw very interesting comments on this matter on ynet.co.il forum(http://www.ynet.co.il/english/Ext/App/TalkBack/CdaViewOpenTalkBack/0,11382,L-3402765-5,00.html) and I’m pasting four of them here. This may give you John/Anonymous something to think about.
- “A perspective of a Jewish citizen of Poland
The article did not exactly slam the Israeli youth! The given comments showed the complexity of the problem. Such authorities as Shevah Weiss and Yael Tamir discussed the problem, and, they also see that the idea of trips of Jewish youth to Poland is a sick idea!
My family has been always very close to Israel, some of them migrated there. Those, however, who decided to remain in the diaspora, treat their communities as their environment. Being in Krakow 60 years after the Shoah I am asking myself am I Jewish or am I Polish? NO. NOT in terms of identity. In terms of how am I treated by Israelis.
I cannot go to MY synagogue freely without being suspiciously watched by the guards. I cannot enter the community buildings without passing by large crowds of youth who show their whole disrespect and arrogance towards the environment that I live in. I cannot go to the March of the Living without being watched and, sometimes even, insulted. Why? Because my parents did not chose to go to Israel and remained in the diaspora and decided to raise me as a Jew?
Youth is youth. All of them will always make crazy jokes and have “fun”. No matter if it’s Jews, Poles, Americans or whoever. This is not a question of the youth and their behavior. This is a question of education. You HAVE TO STOP neglecting our existance - us, simple, Ashkenazis who decided to stay and who decided to raise the generations Jewish. You HAVE TO stop viewing a 1000 of years of our heritage of Poland only through the Shoah. You HAVE TO LEARN how to respect us, our culture, our heritage, and - even - our Polish neighbors because their ancestors made my ancestors survive the war.
This is the community I live in. It is most close to my heart. I want to raise my children here, in Krakow, in the city of Rabbi Meisels and Natan Nata Spira! And it is YOU who have to APPRECIATE it, and you have to TEACH the youth and let them understand and get to know our life, how it was, how it is, and how, one day, it may be if we stop this nonsence of sending the youth to camps and viewing the whole history of the Jewish diaspora only through the Holocaust.
And I don’t want to hear anymore again that Polish newspapers did this or that. Because you will probably consider my post as “slamming” the Jewish youth.
We are Jews.
The most important for us is KNOWLEDGE and EDUCATION.
So?
Where did it go?
Josef , Krakow, Poland (05.23.07)
- To Israelis
Shalom! I’m Polish-Jewish so I know a lot about Polish antisemitism. Well there’re is antisemistism (like everywhere) but it isn’t so strong like in other countries e.g France, Russia, Germany. Have you ever heard about attacking Jews in the Polish streets? I haven’t. When I’m walking i’m don’t afraid that someone would detonade the bomb or something like that. You’re completely ignorant using terms: “Polish Camps”, “Poles killed millions of Jews” “All Poles are antisemitic” “They weren’t helping Jews” Learn more about history! During war Poles risked their life for helping Jews so can you explain that they got 1/4 trees in Yad Vashem? Have you ever heard about Irena Sendlerowa? No? So shut up! In my opinion Israelis are more anti-polish than Poles anti-semtic, sad but true. How can you explain anti-polish comic in Haaretz with bad polish alcoholic men, ugly dirty polish women and good german soldier who had provided sweets? You are totally brainwashed!!!
Paul , Warsaw, Poland (05.24.07)
- To Paul from Krakow
Paul - I am so happy to see your comments. I also hope that one day the Jewish community in Poland, especially Krakow, will be thriving
The war took millions of lives and destroyed something beautiful. But it is our duty to commemorate what has been murdered and to build something not to forget our ancestors. Because commemorating them is not enough. It’s just like putting a stone and forgetting the whole thing.
I don’t like the whole idea of the March of the Living.
Generally the Israeli youth makes a huge picnic in Auschwitz. The groups from America and western Europe or Canada, Australia were relatively calm but they are also “sucked” into this whole frenzy of singing (because we’re alive), eating (because we’re soooo alive) and lying on the ground in a hot spring sun… SUNBATHING!! (Probably, because we are so alive and we really want to show it).
I couldn’t belive my own eyes. I couldn’t move, I couldn’t eat. How can you eat at the place of murder, where you knew how much it cost for all these victims to get a piec of bread? How can you sunbathe and tell your boyfriend a funny story in the sun when you knew that families were torn apart and burnt!
I myself am not a youngster. But it is not the case of being intolerant towards the youth. I was there among quite a big group of Polish Jews, most of them were students. And, you know what? Most of them (although not all of them, I have to admit) were the most miserable people in this whole crowd. No laughing, no singing, no eating. They just sat there tormented because they knew the value of this place - that their grandparents or even great-grandparents were tormented there.
And, actually, this was the first moment that gave me a lot to think about. Beacuse, I am asking myself, is this the Israeli education? How can we be pure and how can we build anything if we even don’t know how to commemorate our ancestors?
Josef , Krakow, Poland (05.24.07)
- Once again to Paul from Krakow and to all of you
For the information of all of you, Krakow is slowly establishing it’s Jewish roots. And it is not only propagating Jewish culture (we have the biggest festival of Jewish culture in Europe which invites the biggest stars of the Jewish music and art). It is also the community which is growing because there is a very strong tendency right now - for the young, to find their Jewish roots, and for the middle-aged - to go back to their roots and return to the faith of their parents.
I don’t know if you know but there are 12 Jewish communities in Poland right now. Not all of them are big and only 4 of them have rabbis, and some of them congregate mainly very old people. But in bigger cities the communities are growing, there are schools for children and regular synagogue services. There are kosher kitchens, there are two Jewish newspapers (one issued in Polish, and a second one bilingual - Polish/Yiddish). This month the Polish Radio opened a new program which is called Kol Yisrael and the whole audition is for the Jewish minority in Poland, created by the Jewish minority and spoken in Hebrew only.
I think Israelis should come here and, finally, face it. Get to know us and get to know our history. Because we’ve been here for over 1000 years and we can really teach you something not to mention the fact that we can really show you something you can be proud of.
And the younger people come - the better. We really do need a change. Because so far my family in Israel are the only people I met there who know something about Poland (because of their own roots) and who appreciate what I do (because they know me and they see in what ways and how I remained Jewish). I am almost 40 (well… not almost, but close). And I know one thing. I want my children to gain equal rights to being Jewish as Israeli youngsters have. I want them to go on a trip to see Israel. But I want them to be treated as partners and active and important individuals, not as something that is odd and should be kept in a cage!
Paul - Am Yisroel Chai! Indeed. And, also, niech zyje Polska!
I’m not moving out of here and I don’t think neither will my children.
We’ve got plenty of things to do here. And I just hope that you can join us in building it rather than disturbing.
Josef , Krakow, Poland (05.24.07)
Anonymous, with every post I am becoming convinced that you are an unusual example of what I would call a “Jewish Nazi.” Your unjustified hatred of the Poles seems to equal that of Himmler, Goebbels and other German Nazis who comdemned the entire Polish nation to extermination.
I wonder, have you ever loved? I don’t mean whether you loved ideas or concepts. I wonder whether you ever loved another human being? Reading your posts, it seems to me you are incapable of love.
It is not entirely your fault. It is always the parents’ duty to teach their children not to judge nations on the basis of individuals’ behavior. Prejudice is one of the worst human vices, your parents definitely failed to teach you the basics.
Nonetheless I honestly do believe that you can change, that you can eradicate the hatred that poisons you. It is the natural human condition to love and be loved by others. I wish with all my heart that one day you will understand it. And it will be your victory alone.
blazej brzeczyszczykiewicz, you are wrong. I did not define Beilin “trashy” because he had a different opinion or ideas. He is an Israeli with no power or respect among the Jews in Israel but he is loved and admired by your kind. He is not even a Knesset member. He has a tiny following within the fringes of the Israeli society and yet, that creature, is being welcomed in the presidential palaces all over Europe. Why do you think?
Moreover, he has negotiated an accord with the adversaries outside the elected government. Had he done it in the USA he would have been locked up for life under the Logan Act: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act
However, he is not an American but Israeli and in a nutty, ultra-liberal Jewish state of Israel they are trying to be more democratic than the USA. Can one be more Catholic than the pope? It is obvious that Israel being surrounded by some of the most brutal regimes on this planet is trying to be more democratic than the USA. The USA is geographically huge and powerful while Israel is tiny and vulnerable. No American parliamentarian would dare to advocate the destruction of the USA but in the Zionist state of Israel the Arab parliamentarians are advocating the destruction of the Jewish state from the podium of the Israeli Knesset. Can you show me a country on this planet where a parliamentarian can do it with the total impunity and continue to serve?
So, if that Beilin had been sitting in some dark corner preaching his ideology and ideas it would have been a different matter. However, that is not the case. While he is ignored by his countrymen he has been elevated by your kind to a special status of great relevance and importance.
That is the essense. You have always loved and admired such Jews.
Would you dedicate the most beautiful buildings in Poland to a Jew who was not critical of other Jews?
As for the Jews coming along way from the Polish gas chambers to being the pilots, super models, the best farmers in the world, computer scientists, the Nobel Prize winners, etc. yes, I stand by my previous statement.
Hornet, why don’t you use your psychology on your wife, children, girlfriend, boyfriend rather than on me? Unlike you, we have to carry over 600 mitzvot. You don’t have any idea what they entail.
Somebody above suggested that “Radio Maryja and some of our ‘politicians’ are mildly anti-Jewish, but let them be, because the last thing I would like to see in our country is restrictions on free speech”.
How much more sickening can it get? How can your politicians be anti-Jewish 65 years after the Holocaust? After all, Poland is a country where there are hardly any Jews left and speaking of hate, why don’t you face the truth and reality? Your so-called “midly anti-Semitic politicians” represent the nature of your land. The reason Radio Maryja is anti-Jewish because it caters to its audience. Obviously, they know who their customers/listeners are.
anti-Polonism, anti-Arabism is the nothing different than anti-Semitism.
as to the 613 commandments most of them oppose the reason of today’s citizen.
First of all - there was no ‘Polish’ gas chambers. These were German ches chambers. Poles were (among Jews, Gipsys and a few others) gased in these chambers. But of course it does not fit to your version of ‘history’ (or rather ’story’).
Another thing - the Radio Maryja problem is reali demonized. I agree that this radiostation spreads hate. But it spreads hate not only to Jews but to everyone and everything, also to other Catholics who think in a diffrent way then they should (according to Radio Maryja). and it is a problem in Poland because 95% of catholics here is thinking in a diffrent way (then they should according to RM). There is one good thing … less then 1% of Poles are listeners of Radio Maryja.
By the way - in common Polish language ‘Radio Maryja listener’ is a synonim of an uneducated, nationalist idiot who hates Jews just like you (anonymous) hate Poles.
These were German gas chambers. (not ‘ches chambers’ - I just mistyped, sorry).
To uneducated jerks: During WW2, between 1939 and 1945 ther was no state of Poland. All this land was occupied by Germany and administrated by Nazis (Germans). Unfortumately (after reading Anonymous) I start to doubt if this information is included in history lessons in some schools.
It is all obvious, isn’t it? It were the Poles who persecuted Germans, and German government had no other option but to occupy Poland to grant their safety.
German government tried to prevent the Poles from killing Jews but it was impossible to control those wild hordes, and Poles built concentration camps. Then to cover up killing 6 million Jews, they killed in those camps some Poles too.
After that they falsified all pre-war history, to make it look like Jews were equal citizens, which everyone knows is a lie. Jews were persecuted, and that is why they had only 35 seats in 1922 parliament elections. Jewish people, who were one tenth of the Polish society before the war, were so persecuted that they weren’t allowed to emigrate to USA, because it is obvious all of them wanted to, and were welcomed there more than in Poland. It is obvious American Jews cared about them, as did American society.
Why is it obvious? It is common knowledge. Everyone will tell you.
What a terrible nation are those Poles, they suck the hate to Jews with their mother’s milk.
The freedom of speech must be absolute. If you grant this freedom only to people you agree with, you impose restrictions on other people’s basic human rights. Look, nobody prevents you from talking w/o thinking; so let others make fools of themselves, as well. If somebody in Poland does not like your folks (because of coming across individuals like you, or for any other reason), let them speak out. If a neo-nazi, white supremacist, devil worshipper, etc., feels like voicing his opinions (no matter how appalling), why prevent him? After all, you do not bottle up your hatred, so why should others? As you know, it is so liberating to open up – it works way better than any medication.
Your world is very simple (or rather simplistic), and all pieces fit perfectly into your version of us-vs.-them reality. You just know you are a victim, and the entire world is after you. Well, they say ignorance is bliss, so I am kinda envious of the state of permanent nirvana you must be in. It brings happiness, of sorts, doesn’t it?
“Well, they say ignorance is bliss, so I am kinda envious of the state of permanent nirvana you must be in. ”
HAHAHAAHAH ROFTL
Y’know. I may have changed my mind. For a while there, I thought John/anon was an American Nazi trying to foment hatred. Now I I think that alternatively John/anon is of Muslim background. In any case, I doubt that any Son of David can be as dumb and vile as John/anon.
goose you got me a bit worried now. the thing that he is hateful and vile means he might be muslim?
he might be american nazi, as the fact that he keeps repeating the same things shows he doesn’t have any real knowledge about european history nor judaism. but i can’t see why he can’t be Jewish.
You think it isnt possible for sons of David to be dumb and vile? There are people like that in every nation. I recently read Anna Bikont’s article on historical research on people denouncing Jews during the German occupation of Poland
Among those people, were also for example:
- Stefania Brandstädter. She was a Jew from a respected and educated Krakow family. She lived during the war on aryan papers in Krakow (not in the ghetto), and she was a passionate denouncer. She used to sit on park benches in Planty, where the caretakers hiding Jewish children and their parents were meeting and taking children to play. She identified the Jewish children, was offering them sweets and getting information on where they lived. She also denounced her own friend from school-times, whom she met accidentally on street one day .
- Eliezer Grünbaum. Son of Izaak Grünbaum- leader of Zionist Party and Member of Polish Parliament. Eliezer, to his father’s disgrace, was a communist. He took part in the war in Spain, he found himself in Auschwitz, later was liberated in Buchenwald. After the liberation he was brought to the Colleagues Court for his cruelty and brutality towards prisoners. After the war he was a communist activist. During a trip to France, he got identified as a kapo on a Parisian street. Thanks to his father’s intervention, he made to escape C